Good teaching clip

[wckf92]

Nice exchange of info here and good teaching methodology:

Questions:
1. Who is the instructor in this video?
2. Who trained him? WSL? PB?
3. What is the Chinese writing on both sides of his wooden dummy?
Thanks.

 

[wckf92]

Another good teaching clip:

I'm not familiar with PB's knife form, but there seems to be some good knife footwork going on here....

 

[Vajramusti]

Look forward to further detail from Juany, Danny and Joy to clarify what they mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------I already said what I had to say in responding to Danny and I understood what he said. I don't play LFJ/guy games of sarcasm. PB is ok, DP is ok, WSL's ex brother in law is ok, Gary Lam is ok-they are different from each other-that too is ok. I have done chi sao with WSL-that too is ok.
But I am on a different path. Don't mind dis cussing my path when the discussion is civil. I think that Gezer's style of civility is worth aiming for.

 

[Vajramusti]

Questions:
1. Who is the instructor in this video?
2. Who trained him? WSL? PB?
3. What is the Chinese writing on both sides of his wooden dummy?
Thanks.

--------------------------------- A student of PB and he targets the bong sao of the other guy with a punch aimed at the ceiling.

 

[Juany118]

Providing a time stamp would be helpful, thanks

I will if my more thorough review dictates. No sense going to the trouble if in slow motion it proves to be a camera angle issue.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

I am on a different path. Don't mind dis cussing my path when the discussion is civil. I think that Gezer's style of civility is worth aiming for.

I hope I haven't been uncivil here? I would appreciate further detail, currently a bit confused what you are talking about in relation to these clips.

 

[Juany118]

I will if my more thorough review dictates. No sense going to the trouble if in slow motion it proves to be a camera angle issue.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Okay after viewing, note only commenting on video 1 and in slow motion.

first beyond the fak feed he is also doing as Joy noted

--------------------------------- A student of PB and he targets the bong sao of the other guy with a punch aimed at the ceiling.

Next he applies his own lap at time with an elbow bent at almost 90 degrees and at times in line with his opposite shoulder. Time check isn't really necessary because start basically from the beginning. I'ts one thing to have a punch deflected up after being intercepted by a bong, something else to have your strike start with your arm pointing at the ceiling. Video doesn't really lie in this case.

 

[LFJ]

first beyond the fak feed he is also doing as Joy noted

The feed is intentional, because they are working together, not fighting, as explained, and as you already acknowledged, it "does a worthy job of checking on the wu".

Joy said; "targets the bong sao of the other guy with a punch aimed at the ceiling".

On the punch side of this drill, the focus is on coordination of jat+punch, and full body power through the hip and elbow connection behind the punch, hence you see the low elbow driving forward. Focus on the hand, and you miss the important bit. Look for the elbow and hip.

This drill is not trying to actually punch and block each other in another versus match off.

The punch and the bong serve cooperatively as reference points for the partners to train correct hip and elbow drive for the punch and elbow rotation for the bong, and to get the necessary repetition in to condition these behaviors.

That said, the punch is aimed at the chin, and would continue to hit there if the bong wasn't present, as the instructor checks for several times.

Again, if you are thinking "versus", actually trying to hit and force blocks, and looking at the hand, you're missing all the important development of mechanics. This drill is not time for fighting each other or training this vs that applications.

Many actions in VT training are uncompleted because the focus is on developing certain aspects of the full action. If you don't understand the abstract nature of the training system, you will be looking at it all wrong and change things that shouldn't be changed, losing the entire benefit of the training in exchange for applications.

Have another look and focus on the hip and elbow, not the hand and trying to actually hit the other guy in the face.

Next he applies his own lap at time with an elbow bent at almost 90 degrees and at times in line with his opposite shoulder.

Wu is supposed to be offset behind the bong. It can't be extended much further without sending it out to block along with your own bong forearm like a shield as you do in TWC.

This is not preferable to us because it is committing two arms against one and losing your next hit position so you have to do another move to clear before striking, since your wu cannot punch.

 

[guy b]

Okay after viewing, note only commenting on video 1 and in slow motion.

first beyond the fak feed he is also doing as Joy noted

Joy seems to have changed his criticism since the start of the thread:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Danny-A comment reluctantly: He appears to be hitting the other person's hand in the lop/punch sequence.

Aiming at the centerline would be better. Its the other person's job to deflect the punch wit bong sao.

and

--------------------------------- A student of PB and he targets the bong sao of the other guy with a punch aimed at the ceiling.

Do you agree with one or both of these criticisms?

 

[guy b]

The feed is intentional, because they are working together, not fighting, as explained, and as you already acknowledged, it "does a worthy job of checking on the wu".

Joy said; "targets the bong sao of the other guy with a punch aimed at the ceiling".

On the punch side of this drill, the focus is on coordination of jat+punch, and full body power through the hip and elbow connection behind the punch, hence you see the low elbow driving forward. Focus on the hand, and you miss the important bit. Look for the elbow and hip.

This drill is not trying to actually punch and block each other in another versus match off.

The punch and the bong serve cooperatively as reference points for the partners to train correct hip and elbow drive for the punch and elbow rotation for the bong, and to get the necessary repetition in to condition these behaviors.

That said, the punch is aimed at the chin, and would continue to hit there if the bong wasn't present, as the instructor checks for several times.

Again, if you are thinking "versus", actually trying to hit and force blocks, and looking at the hand, you're missing all the important development of mechanics. This drill is not time for fighting each other or training this vs that applications.

Many actions in VT training are uncompleted because the focus is on developing certain aspects of the full action. If you don't understand the abstract nature of the training system, you will be looking at it all wrong and change things that shouldn't be changed, losing the entire benefit of the training in exchange for applications.

Have another look and focus on the hip and elbow, not the hand and trying to actually hit the other guy in the face.

Wu is supposed to be offset behind the bong. It can't be extended much further without sending it out to block along with your own bong forearm like a shield as you do in TWC.

This is not preferable to us because it is committing two arms against one and losing your next hit position so you have to do another move to clear before striking, since your wu cannot punch.

Good breakdown

 

[LFJ]

But I am on a different path. Don't mind dis cussing my path when the discussion is civil.

To get a perspective on where you're coming from, we can look at how the laap-sau drill is performed in your lineage. Let me know if this is not a good representation of it, though.

What we see from 5:28 is winding up the wu-sau by drawing it back to the side of their cheek each time before chopping forward with it.

As he explains earlier at 3:16, the target is the chest. So, it's a dropping punch as he shows, and in the course of the drill it is dropping on the partner's arm.

We also see no hip and elbow drive, because of this dropping punch. So, there is no body behind it. It's just winding up, chopping, and banging on each other's arms back and forth.

In the second video below we see a more free and active practice of it, but still see the same winding up and banging on the arms.

 

[LFJ]

The only categories I've described are primary (hit), auxiliary (paak; jat), and remedial (bong, laap, biu).

Ideally, remedial actions will not be used where primary or auxiliary actions can be used, and auxiliary actions will not be used where primary actions can be used, as a matter of simplicity, directness, and efficiency.

It's not so much about defining and restricting actions to a particular order, as it is about the appropriateness of each kind of action given timing, distance, and position.

So, here's an example of the unthinkable for me, from Joy's lineage (HKM > AF >); closing the gap with remedial actions.

From a stiff and stilted ready stance, he slides in and places his arm in a disadvantageous position under the opponent's arms.

He then has to use bong-sau to recover from this bad position he put himself in. But all it does is lift the arm straight up. So then he has to use laap-sau to fix this problem as well.

Already two remedial actions fixing problems he made for himself while closing the gap before finally being able to strike.

 

[Lobo66]

A lot of banging against arms in those videos.

 

[Juany118]

Joy seems to have changed his criticism since the start of the thread:



and



Do you agree with one or both of these criticisms?

I answered the first one already with my dialogue with Lobo earlier. That said I believe the two are essentially showing the same concept. It's just the fak sequence made some sense the way Lobo explained it.

 

[guy b]

You think that checking the wu hand with fak and training the punch are essentially showing the same concept? What would that be? And where does the whole reaching across centre criticism come into it? How do you position your wu hand?

 

[Juany118]

You think that checking the wu hand with fak and training the punch are essentially showing the same concept? What would that be? And where does the whole reaching across centre criticism come into it? How do you position your wu hand?

No, the concept of Joy's criticism. He says in the very quote you noted...

...Aiming at the centerline would be better...

So while I may see the point of Lobo's explanation regarding checking the wu the idea of aiming at the Centerline and leaving it to the other person to do the right things or take a hit is also equally valid.

So, just on simple observation of the first video I see the instructor often crossing his own center line when he laps, punching for the ceiling and feeding faks
As far as the wu placement I am talking about where the lap occurs at the opposite shoulder.

Now I won't question whether or not the instructor felt these things were good or necessary teaching tools. I don't know what, if any, issues the student has and not knowing the teacher I don't know his methodology. Without understanding the context of that particular training session all we have to go on is what we see and part of what we see and that raises questions that should be asked, it doesn't imply judgement.

 

[Vajramusti]

Okay after viewing, note only commenting on video 1 and in slow motion.

first beyond the fak feed he is also doing as Joy noted



Next he applies his own lap at time with an elbow bent at almost 90 degrees and at times in line with his opposite shoulder. Time check isn't really necessary because start basically from the beginning. I'ts one thing to have a punch deflected up after being intercepted by a bong, something else to have your strike start with your arm pointing at the ceiling. Video doesn't really lie in this case.

Joy seems to have changed his criticism since the start of the thread:

((Odd comment and perception. I have not changed my position.If PB's lop appeals to you-ok..
why clutter the thread with just repetitions?)))

 

[Vajramusti]

One of the difficulties in talking about wing chun is many folks confuse development and application.
Lop sao as a developmental principle is not isomorphic with applications. The one- many relationship comes from the logic of zero giving rise to many numbers...1,2,3 3 1/2. Functionally, lop sao when done right and proper bis the mother of various form of "grabbing' with complementary relationship of both hands and unified body structure and timing.
My remarks are directed to the list-am not interested in conversing with guy and lfj and lobo on this point.
Closing this thread may be a good idea.

 

[LFJ]

So, just on simple observation of the first video I see the instructor often crossing his own center line when he laps, punching for the ceiling and feeding faks
As far as the wu placement I am talking about where the lap occurs at the opposite shoulder.

You are not being very observant or reading the replies if you think there is punching for the ceiling.

What problems do you think there are with an offset wu or feeding faak to check the student's wu?

 

[LFJ]

am not interested in conversing with guy and lfj and lobo on this point.
Closing this thread may be a good idea.

Closing this thread?

You said you don't mind discussing your path when discussion is civil.

This discussion is civil and we are sharing information.

Do you have nothing to say about the clips from your lineage? Is that why you want the thread closed?