Good teaching clip

[LFJ]

A faster, more fluid example of the drill here briefly @1:27.

This is related to knife thinking, by the way. Cover, move, check/slice, not crossing your own arms so you don't get cut.

 

[Lobo66]

Yes, at one minute in the first video the teacher is reminding his student that his wu sau needs to be more active....needs to be there with forward intent. He is definitely not attacking his students hand/arm needlessly.

No one is "reaching" across the center in the lap sau cycle drill. Remember : the bong and wu act together with pivoting footwork to change the angle.

 

[LFJ]

Yes, at one minute in the first video the teacher is reminding his student that his wu sau needs to be more active....needs to be there with forward intent. He is definitely not attacking his students hand/arm needlessly.

Correct. Most people will have problems with unresponsive wu-sau when so much other movement is going on, both their partner's actions and their own. Wu-sau always falls asleep or freezes up, especially at higher speeds.

The instructor makes his faak-sau slow and obvious to check the beginner at his pace.

The problem is people often look at VT drills as a match, this vs that, and don't realize there is cooperation, feeding, and checking for correct behaviors and errors of all sorts.

This is an important aspect of the training methodology, lost on people who are only thinking "versus".

 

[wckf92]

They were talking about the laap-sau cycle. This is something else. So, I still don't really know what they're talking about, and they seem unwilling to discuss detail, though they are happy to X the video and say something vague about a "no-no".

Anyhow, it is feeding because it is a mutual drill, not fighting. The student had 4 months of training there, so it is still a little clumsy and unnatural.

The laap + faak sets up the next part for the student to train recovery of position to wu-sau and replacing to check forward with the other hand to keep from being followed back, and reseting to find another tactical entry.

Hips, elbow, footwork, man-wu switch all work together. The feeder then does another laap + faak to recover their position and set it up on the other side. A mutual drill. The partners swap roles at 1:33.

Later, this can be drilled in a more alive manner, as in the video below. Recover lost position to wu-sau and check forward, reset to find another tactical entry, intercept and attack.

Why does the student enter with a Pak and punch at :15?

 

[LFJ]

Why does the student enter with a Pak and punch at :15?

He does it throughout the drill in the role of the feeder.

 

[wckf92]

He does it throughout the drill in the role of the feeder.

I see.
So, in that respect he used the pak to enter to clear the way because Bayers arm was already an obstacle blocking the feeders entry line (?)

 

[LFJ]

I see.
So, in that respect he used the pak to enter to clear the way because Bayers arm was already an obstacle blocking the feeders entry line (?)

Yes. What do you see PB do next? Intercept with just a straight punch. Range, position, and LSJC permit this. Otherwise an auxiliary action will be used, as later when he uses jat and paak.

 

[wckf92]

Yes. What do you see PB do next? Intercept with just a straight punch. Range, position, and LSJC permit this. Otherwise an auxiliary action will be used, as later when he uses jat and paak.

Understood.
Originally I was expecting the student to enter with a punch onto Bayers arm, and then, if needed, pak the arm out of his way in order to continue feeding etc.

 

[LFJ]

Understood.
Originally I was expecting the student to enter with a punch onto Bayers arm, and then, if needed, pak the arm out of his way in order to continue feeding etc.

They aren't free sparring, as you know. No one is going to paak-da this side, then paak-da that side over and over. That's why it's called feeding. It's to set up the drill.

It's also not likely you are just going to enter on someone from out of range and punch straight through their guard anyway. They are alive too. By the time you paak their arm to restart your failed punch they will have already acted.

The thing with auxiliary actions is that they aren't necessarily always secondary actions, as in move #2 and never used to initiate. It depends on the circumstance (timing, distance, position) and what is needed. It's just inefficient to use them where the primary tool, the punch, alone can accomplish both tasks.

"Kiu loi, kiu seung gwo. Mo kiu, ji jou kiu."

Bridge is an attack line. If it's open, cross it. If not, open it or draw open another, which is what this drill is about. You can't always move forward and force entries. Some times you need to reset and draw open another way. But even when "retreating", distance is controlled and forward intent is present.

 

[Lobo66]

Good post.

 

[wckf92]

They aren't free sparring, as you know. No one is going to paak-da this side, then paak-da that side over and over. That's why it's called feeding. It's to set up the drill.

It's also not likely you are just going to enter on someone from out of range and punch straight through their guard anyway. They are alive too. By the time you paak their arm to restart your failed punch they will have already acted.

The thing with auxiliary actions is that they aren't necessarily always secondary actions, as in move #2 and never used to initiate. It depends on the circumstance (timing, distance, position) and what is needed. It's just inefficient to use them where the primary tool, the punch, alone can accomplish both tasks.

"Kiu loi, kiu seung gwo. Mo kiu, ji jou kiu."

Bridge is an attack line. If it's open, cross it. If not, open it or draw open another, which is what this drill is about. You can't always move forward and force entries. Some times you need to reset and draw open another way. But even when "retreating", distance is controlled and forward intent is present.

Ok. That helps.
Next question would be: do you delineate specific hands to the "secondary" category, and other hands to the "auxiliary" category?

 

[LFJ]

Ok. That helps.
Next question would be: do you delineate specific hands to the "secondary" category, and other hands to the "auxiliary" category?

I think of primary as main, and auxiliary as aiding the primary. Not what's first followed by second. Auxiliary actions may be secondary, and usually are, but not in all cases.

The only categories I've described are primary (hit), auxiliary (paak; jat), and remedial (bong, laap, biu).

Ideally, remedial actions will not be used where primary or auxiliary actions can be used, and auxiliary actions will not be used where primary actions can be used, as a matter of simplicity, directness, and efficiency.

It's not so much about defining and restricting actions to a particular order, as it is about the appropriateness of each kind of action given timing, distance, and position.

 

[LFJ]

By the way, I'm not sure if all other WSLVT guys use similar terminology. These "categories" are just terms I use to express my perception of the VT fighting strategy.

In most encounters, primary and auxiliary is all that will be/I have used. VT fighting is quite simple, even if the training can be complex.

 

[wckf92]

I think of primary as main, and auxiliary as aiding the primary. Not what's first followed by second. Auxiliary actions may be secondary, and usually are, but not in all cases.

The only categories I've described are primary (hit), auxiliary (paak; jat), and remedial (bong, laap, biu).

Ideally, remedial actions will not be used where primary or auxiliary actions can be used, and auxiliary actions will not be used where primary actions can be used, as a matter of simplicity, directness, and efficiency.

It's not so much about defining and restricting actions to a particular order, as it is about the appropriateness of each kind of action given timing, distance, and position.

Thx for the info. I think I'm getting a clearer picture...
So, when you say "hit"...does that apply to a punch (regardless of height), palms, and kicks?

 

[LFJ]

Thx for the info. I think I'm getting a clearer picture...
So, when you say "hit"...does that apply to a punch (regardless of height), palms, and kicks?

Mainly the punch. Palms can be used. Kicks depend on the situation.

 

[guy b]

Correct. Most people will have problems with unresponsive wu-sau when so much other movement is going on, both their partner's actions and their own. Wu-sau always falls asleep or freezes up, especially at higher speeds.

The instructor makes his faak-sau slow and obvious to check the beginner at his pace.

The problem is people often look at VT drills as a match, this vs that, and don't realize there is cooperation, feeding, and checking for correct behaviors and errors of all sorts.

This is an important aspect of the training methodology, lost on people who are only thinking "versus".

Excellent post and great analysis in this thread

 

[guy b]

Look forward to further detail from Juany, Danny and Joy to clarify what they mean.

 

[wtxs]

Are you still talking about the laap-sau cycle?

How are you "zoning to his outside" without "reaching across your center"?

Angling footwork with facing.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, at one minute in the first video the teacher is reminding his student that his wu sau needs to be more active....needs to be there with forward intent. He is definitely not attacking his students hand/arm needlessly.

No one is "reaching" across the center in the lap sau cycle drill. Remember : the bong and wu act together with pivoting footwork to change the angle.

On the first bit gotcha. I was just thinking there are ways to achieve the same goal that could be done with the more "traditional" strikes along the center line. Not a biggie though, the fak does a worthy job of "checking" on the wu.

As for the last I watched the first video a bunch of times, and maybe it's just camera angle bit it looks like there are times that an elbow is bent at 90 degrees and reaching across the body. At work on my phone atm. When I get home I will pull it up on my PC and slow it down this time to check.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

On the first bit gotcha. I was just thinking there are ways to achieve the same goal that could be done with the more "traditional" strikes along the center line. Not a biggie though, the fak does a worthy job of "checking" on the wu.

As for the last I watched the first video a bunch of times, and maybe it's just camera angle bit it looks like there are times that an elbow is bent at 90 degrees and reaching across the body. At work on my phone atm. When I get home I will pull it up on my PC and slow it down this time to check.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Providing a time stamp would be helpful, thanks