Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Andy Moynihan]

It sounds like he MIGHT have been responding to the location of some sort of call and checking the area for vehicles/people. Or going to cover a call that technically wont let him go "code" so hes stretching things a bit to get somewhere quick. When you hear another cop say "send me another car..no hurry", you want to get there quick but some dept policies may not let you run code. Of course getting into an accident blowing a light w/o emergency equipment on and saying "I wasnt going code sgt...." isnt going to help you much. You re sort of rolling the dice.

I have been in many situations where my driving could have been interpreted as "dumbass" but what I was doing was looking for a suspect vehicle. While I try to at least light up before going through a light, sometimes I dont. Other times Ive done it I was trying to catch up to a car that was going the other way without tipping him off with the lights.

Of course it could have been for no good reason at all. Just giving you some options for "good reasons". I could give you some "bad reasons" too.

"Going code"= lights/ wig-wags?

 

[jks9199]

It sounds like he MIGHT have been responding to the location of some sort of call and checking the area for vehicles/people. Or going to cover a call that technically wont let him go "code" so hes stretching things a bit to get somewhere quick. When you hear another cop say "send me another car..no hurry", you want to get there quick but some dept policies may not let you run code. Of course getting into an accident blowing a light w/o emergency equipment on and saying "I wasnt going code sgt...." isnt going to help you much. You re sort of rolling the dice.

I have been in many situations where my driving could have been interpreted as "dumbass" but what I was doing was looking for a suspect vehicle. While I try to at least light up before going through a light, sometimes I dont. Other times Ive done it I was trying to catch up to a car that was going the other way without tipping him off with the lights.

Of course it could have been for no good reason at all. Just giving you some options for "good reasons". I could give you some "bad reasons" too.

I agree; there are good justifications that might be out there. I'm not pushing a cruiser these days, and you really don't want to see some of the ways we drive when we're doing surveillance or tailing someone, for example. Reaching back to patrol days -- depending on the call, you don't run hot to it, and if you're looking for a particular car in traffic, you might do stunts like the one Bob described.

But -- let's be honest. There are quite a few cops out there who drive like maniacs without justification, too. Just "cuz they can." I used to work with one guy whose driving scared me... and I know his supervisor had some words with him about it, on more than one occasion.

"Going code"= lights/ wig-wags?

Yep; somewhere (I think in California), they designated three levels of response with Code 1 (normal driving), Code 2 (urgent; go direct, but no lights & sirens), and Code 3 (lights & sirens, emergency response). The levels of response were already around; the name "code" caught on.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me add some data.

At the light he caught up to me, 1 block to the right is the preceinct hq. (Yeah I live 2 blocks from it. Response time's pretty quick on slow nights)

Straight ahead 2 blocks is a gas/cigatette station that gets hit every 6-8 weeks it seems.

After waiting for the 1st light, and after making sure I knew he ws there at the second light, he went through the red, and went straight.

I can assume he was on a call, except if he was, why would he have waited for the 1st light, then taken the time to sniff my butt before continuing on?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Let me add some data.

At the light he caught up to me, 1 block to the right is the preceinct hq. (Yeah I live 2 blocks from it. Response time's pretty quick on slow nights)

Straight ahead 2 blocks is a gas/cigatette station that gets hit every 6-8 weeks it seems.

After waiting for the 1st light, and after making sure I knew he ws there at the second light, he went through the red, and went straight.

I can assume he was on a call, except if he was, why would he have waited for the 1st light, then taken the time to sniff my butt before continuing on?

One night while driving home many years ago, I pulled onto an unlighted dirt street. I lived on it. A police car that had turned two intersections from behind me (* less than a 1/4 of a mile *) The officer turned his lights on. I pulled over. While, I was getting my paperwork out, he turned off all his lights. He then backed out and away from me (* Dark *). He then turned back onto the main paved road and went up it totally dark. I saw him leave, and got out and walked back to the intersection and watched him for about a mile go dark. Just after he passed over the hill, he turned his head lights on. I thought it was funny as I was having problems with the local police and then this happens.

I understand running Dark into a call. I do not understand running Dark from a Call and then turning on your lights after you are out of sight. The only issue was that the lights just turned on, over the hill and no car came over it. I guess Physics was not the officer's strong suit. But my point was that sometimes good Police do things we do nto understand as we do not have the complete picture. Then again as mentioned there are some bad cops that just do it because they can.

 

[Drac]

But -- let's be honest. There are quite a few cops out there who drive like maniacs without justification, too. Just "cuz they can." I used to work with one guy whose driving scared me... and I know his supervisor had some words with him about it, on more than one occasion.

Amen brother..There are officers in my department that I will not ride with because they scare the **** outta me..I even went home one day after roll call when the Sgt refused to honor my requests for a different partner .I was rolling to an " Officer Needs Assistance" call..I had the lights and siren on...I bumped into a cruiser from another city that is not on our radio ban and told them what was up...The responded too, they ran EVERY red light with checking to see if there was oncoming traffic..I still paused at every light the way my FTO taught me...

Yep; somewhere (I think in California), they designated three levels of response with Code 1 (normal driving), Code 2 (urgent; go direct, but no lights & sirens), and Code 3 (lights & sirens, emergency response). The levels of response were already around; the name "code" caught on.

One department uses the term PRIORITY.

 

[Drac]

Can anyone offer an alternate to my current conclusion which is dangerous dumbass?

Prolly on a call...Robbery or Burglary in progress, or something where the suspects are armed an still on scene.....Still there is no excuse for driving like a butt head

 

[MJS]

Actually, I don't think I stated that kneeling on the back is wrong. I could be mistaken about that, but I don't recall saying it.

Perhaps that is the impression that your post gave. Of course, I've yet to see any alternatives, as it seems if LEOs use any force...heaven forbid, they come under the microscope of those that don't think highly of the cops.

As for solutions -- make the damn process transparent and hold the police to the same standard as the rest of us. That would be a hell of a start.

So, you think that despite the links that have already been posted of LEOs who've been in trouble, that they skate on any charges? Hmmm...a Sgt. at a PD here in CT, stole some cash from the explorer fund...she is being charged.

Frankly, the police should be held to a higher standard -- they are given weapons and the power and authority to wave them in people's faces with often the flimsiest of excuses. They are given the power to wreck lives based on hunches.

Depending on the situation, they just may be in the right, despite you thinking that its a flimsy excuse. Again, not saying that they're all good, but come on, I doubt its as bad as you're claiming.

Now that in and of itself is not wrong. The police serve a vital public function and we'd be much worse off without them. But given the power they wield, having their disciplinary measures shrouded in secrecy, and largely being held to a lesser standard when it comes to criminal prosecution is exactly the opposite of what it should be.

Why does everything have to be pubic knowledge?

Yes, the police are human beings who make mistakes. I'm not saying toss every cop who ever had a bad day in jail and throw away the key. But do make sure that mistakes are not tolerated without repercussions, and make those known publicly so that the citizens know that their police care about quality and consistency and do not tolerate bad cops.

See my comment above.

I was reading something a few weeks back about how DA's are finding many inner city cases difficult to prosecute because the local residents tend to be uncooperative with the police and DA office. The reason is really straightforward -- the DA and Police are not trusted. Building trust starts by being open. The people want crime addressed, they just don't believe the police are interested in that.

Hmm..I believe I said something about this a while ago. Part of solving a problem is a 2 way street.

 

[MJS]

For the lonest time, in NYC, the standard for when an officer could un-holster their weapon was that they felt threatened or had reasonable suspicion that the person they were approaching might be armed. It's been similar in other places I've been. 'Reasonable suspicion' has been basically "anything another cop might do."

Nothing wrong with that. If you knew someone may be armed, I'd think it'd be normal to pull a weapon.

Police do not need probable cause to engage in a search, only reasonable suspicion.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MJS]

Because the officer merely has to say "i felt threatened, the suspect appeared to be acting strangely." It does not in any way have to be true. It's a free ticket.

I call BS on that. If you're pulled over by a cop, the person should do everything in their power to put that cops mind at ease. That means, don't make any sudden moves, turn on your interior lights, keep your hands on the wheel, etc. If you start making odd movements before the cop even gets out of his car, what the hell do you think is going thru his mind??

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, I tend to agree with KP on a point. The police should not only be held to a higher standard, they should be that higher standard.
I happen to think most of them do meet that though.

When Gen. Patton took command in Africa, he found an American Army that was a disgrace. Sloppy discipline, sloppy appearance, etc. He put his foot down, and whipped them into a shape to be proud of.

Cops in clean neat uniforms, in clean cars, with good manners and a respectful attitude will be cops you can look up to.

Slobs in dirty stained half buttoned uniforms, driving beat up filthy cars, who swear like it's going out of style who think they are to be bowed to.....those are the guys I hold in low esteem.

I've run into both. I've yet to meet the later among our members here. Might be jeans and tee guys off duty, but on duty I've seen pros that I'm damn glad to know and in many cases call friends.


As to discipline, I hear about the big screw ups. Don't really care about who showed up late to work. Don't even care about -your- complaint. But I'd like to know mine was taken seriously, honestly investigated, and all.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Freedom of Information act doesn't always give you answers, people are stonewalled all the time on that call.

Oh look. From a traffic ticket to jail time in a few seconds.
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Now in this one, the cops are flat out wrong. Watch the cop walk maybe 10 feet up to the woman and just crack her in the head. Don't know what was said, but?
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Video from the Daily Bruin website, which also contains additional coverage: http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.a... The video shows Kim Passoth's reporting of the repeated tasering of a student without his ID in the library -- they taser him even when he is handcuffed and screaming in pain and nearby students are telling the police to stop.
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This was discussed here when it happened I think.

Chris Rock gives advice on dealing with the Police.
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[Drac]

Chris Rock is a genius....He forgot to add not to attempt to quote law or sound like an attourney when being questioned...

 

[jks9199]

Freedom of Information act doesn't always give you answers, people are stonewalled all the time on that call.

Oh look. From a traffic ticket to jail time in a few seconds.
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Now in this one, the cops are flat out wrong. Watch the cop walk maybe 10 feet up to the woman and just crack her in the head. Don't know what was said, but?
[yt]vR5RBIBNrmY[/yt]

Video from the Daily Bruin website, which also contains additional coverage: http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.a... The video shows Kim Passoth's reporting of the repeated tasering of a student without his ID in the library -- they taser him even when he is handcuffed and screaming in pain and nearby students are telling the police to stop.
[yt]VMl4u1E2_bY[/yt]
This was discussed here when it happened I think.

Chris Rock gives advice on dealing with the Police.
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One note on your second video there, Legionary...

It's not in the US. (Looks like maybe Spain, since some of the titling shows Madrid.)

The general culture and role of law enforcement in the US, and England, is rather different than in many other countries. The protections that US citizens have from the government and law enforcement are almost unique in the world; there are things that cops in England can do that stun and amaze us here in the US because Constitutional protections prevent us. Tez may be able to hit on a few of them; I know they've popped up here on MT before. Look at a lot of other countries, and it's even more amazing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One note on your second video there, Legionary...

It's not in the US. (Looks like maybe Spain, since some of the titling shows Madrid.)

The general culture and role of law enforcement in the US, and England, is rather different than in many other countries. The protections that US citizens have from the government and law enforcement are almost unique in the world; there are things that cops in England can do that stun and amaze us here in the US because Constitutional protections prevent us. Tez may be able to hit on a few of them; I know they've popped up here on MT before. Look at a lot of other countries, and it's even more amazing.

Absolutely true. I have been in several foreign countries and witnessed one beat down that would simply have not happened here in the US based upon what was going on. We do have a great constitution.

I would also say that I have met and observed exceptional police behavior in these other countries. (that is more the norm than anything else) Law Enforcement around the world is a tough job. I believe that any LEO who takes their job seriously and professionally deserves all the respect in the world. Try dealing with the worst of society day in and day out. That is a very, very challenging situation.

I have in general found almost all LEO's that I have encountered to be hard working, conscientious people trying to do a very, very, very difficult job.

In any field there will always be 1% or so that screw off and screw up and do not take their job seriously and professionally. It simply does not matter the job. Video footage of poor police behavior is always a minority thing in the general greater scope of all police behavior. One thing is for sure is that police help out people more often. I can just look back to last night where I saw one helping to change a tire here in Michigan.

When I was in this field I always tried to be professional, polite and help out where needed. That is in general what most LEO's do!!!

 

[Sukerkin]

Those were some quite surprising and, in Mr. Rocks case, entertaining videos posted by TLL above.

The end to the first one was astounding tho'. I thought the officer had been marvellously polite and covered all the right bases and then the eejut he'd pulled over reversed over the police car !

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What are the stats guys? Traffic stop or a domestic call being the most dangerous one for a cop?

 

[jks9199]

What are the stats guys? Traffic stop or a domestic call being the most dangerous one for a cop?

It's not a clear-cut question, for a lot of reasons.

How do you define "most dangerous?" During a traffic stop, you're dealing with an unknown person or people, on the side of a road, with traffic and other things going on around you. It's something you've done hundreds or thousands of times by the end of probation... so it's really easy to become very complacent. You're frequently alone. No matter how carefully you pick the location -- the violators almost never stop where you expect or want them to. You don't know if the driver is a serial killer or a 90 year old grandma. Or both... You don't know if they've got a pocket nuke, a dead midget, or nothing in the car. Your lights are drunk magnets... and looky-loos are drawn to the activity. But, most of the time, nothing happens beyond the ticket.

On a domestic -- you know you're going into a hairy furball of a mess. A lot of the time -- you know who you're dealing with before you get there, because the "good domestics" are typically repeat offenders. Even if they're not -- you already know a lot going into the situation because you were called to a problem. You don't handle a domestic alone. But you're also often in the suspect's home -- and they're already pissed off before you "invade" and start telling them what to do. And they may not think that they did anything wrong. You've got a screwy dynamic in the first place -- because it's not uncommon for the two that were fighting each other tooth & nails to suddenly bond against the interlopers who are trying to take charge...

Personal opinion: I think that traffic stops are more dangerous because we do so many of them, and so few become violent, and there are so many other distractions coupled with so many unknowns.

It's worth noting, I think, that every year, the number of LEOs killed in the US in some form of accident (including crashes) is about the same as those killed in some sort of assault.

For consideration, here are the FBI's summaries for 2006. (I didn't see 2007's numbers listed yet online in my quick search)

Officers Feloniously Killed - 2006 - Tables

8 officers were killed when responding to disturbance calls (e.g., bar fights, family quarrels), and 8 officers were killed while conducting traffic pursuits or stops.

Officers Accidentally Killed - 2006 - Tables

* 38 officers died in 2006 as a result of automobile accidents.

* 13 officers were struck and killed by vehicles; 9 of these victim officers were directing traffic/assisting motorists, etc., and 4 were performing traffic stops, instituting roadblocks, etc.

* 8 officers died of injuries sustained in motorcycle accidents.

 

[jks9199]

It's not a clear-cut question, for a lot of reasons.

How do you define "most dangerous?" During a traffic stop, you're dealing with an unknown person or people, on the side of a road, with traffic and other things going on around you. It's something you've done hundreds or thousands of times by the end of probation... so it's really easy to become very complacent. You're frequently alone. No matter how carefully you pick the location -- the violators almost never stop where you expect or what them to. You don't know if the driver is a serial killer or a 90 year old grandma. Or both... You don't know if they've got a pocket nuke, a dead midget, or nothing in the car. Your lights are drunk magnets... and looky-loos are drawn to the activity. But, most of the time, nothing happens beyond the ticket.

On a domestic -- you know you're going into a hairy furball of a mess. A lot of the time -- you know who you're dealing with before you get there, because the "good domestics" are typically repeat offenders. Even if they're not -- you already know a lot going into the situation because you were called to a problem. You don't handle a domestic alone. But you're also often in the suspect's home -- and they're already pissed off before you "invade" and start telling them what to do. And they may not think that they did anything wrong. You've got a screwy dynamic in the first place -- because it's not uncommon for the two that were fighting each other tooth & nails to suddenly bond against the interlopers who are trying to take charge...

Personal opinion: I think that traffic stops are more dangerous because we do so many of them, and so few become violent, and there are so many other distractions coupled with so many unknowns.

It's worth noting, I think, that every year, the number of LEOs killed in the US in some form of accident (including crashes) is about the same as those killed in some sort of assault.

For consideration, here are the FBI's summaries for 2006. (I didn't see 2007's numbers listed yet online in my quick search)

Officers Feloniously Killed - 2006 - Tables

Officers Accidentally Killed - 2006 - Tables

OK... found the 2007 data.

The numbers aren't that different. Looking solely at assaults on cops, not deaths, about a third occurred during some sort of disturbance call -- which is not limited to domestic disturbances, but includes bar fights, disorderly subjects, and so on.

 

[Drac]

What are the stats guys? Traffic stop or a domestic call being the most dangerous one for a cop?

It's not a clear-cut question, for a lot of reasons...Personal opinion: I think that traffic stops are more dangerous because we do so many of them, and so few become violent, and there are so many other distractions coupled with so many unknowns.

Been to both type of calls...As JKS said with the domestic you know your getting into the ****...With a traffic stop you NEVER know what you will encounter..

 

[Archangel M]

If "dangerous" was defined as being at risk of having a complaint filed against you I would say car stops.