Goals for the first dan--and retention

[ralphmcpherson]

Then find a way to reduce those costs? Kukkiwon fees aren't that high, so if the "testing fees" are high, then find a grandmaster/master more willing to help at a lower price?

I don't know if anyone else has worked it out, but basically, averaging it out over the time between grades it costs a black belt practitioner $50-90 per year in Kukkiwon fees, less than $2 per week.

2nd Dan - 1 year - $90 - $90 per year
3rd Dan - 2 years - $120 - $60 per year
4th Dan - 3 years - $150 - $50 per year
5th Dan - 4 years - $300 - $75 per year
6th Dan - 5 years - $350 - $70 per year
7th Dan - 6 years - $450 - $75 per year
8th Dan - 7 years - $550 - $78 per year
9th Dan - 8 years - $700 - $88 per year

I don't know how much you guys pay for your monthly training fees (maybe that's a different thread, if people are willing to post it) and annual insurance/membership costs, and I know that a lot of examiners add on a grading/testing fee, but it doesn't seem like a huge amount to me.

So, at a kukki club, you can get to 1st dan black belt in 2 years (at some clubs, 1 year in korea according to puuini), then a further 1 year to 2nd dan and then 2 more years to 3rd dan? So it is possible to be a 3rd dan in 4-5 years of training? does this happen often or have most 3rd dans been training longer? It just seems awfully quick to get to 3rd dan considering in many styles it would take 5 years or longer to get to 1st dan. No disrespect intended, Im just curious as it takes us 9 years to 3rd dan and Id never really done the maths on that till now.

 

[StudentCarl]

And of course there is a curriculum past 1st Dan. If anything, I have too much material to cover.

Thank you sir. Would you share in general what you emphasize with 1st dans?

Carl

 

[Rumy73]

Not everyone who graduates from high school attends college. Not every college graduate earns a master's degree. Not every graduate student chases a doctorate. Not every doctorate student continues on to a post doctorate. The point is that goals vary with each person. It is normal to expect that as things become more specialized and difficult fewer people will pursue such goals.

Another factor is that many people learn martial arts as children and as teens. Often they are becoming black belts near the end of high school. At that time, there are other competing goals in life. New interests and relationships arise. It is normal and good. Hopefully, people who reach black belt and leave the dojang will come back later in life. However, if not, hopefully they will have such positive experiences that when they grow up and become parents, they will enroll their children in martial arts classes.

 

[andyjeffries]

7th to 8th Dan time in grade is now 8 years, and 8th to 9th is 9 years. But there is no fee for 8th and 9th Dan testing.

Thanks for that, I'll update my local document I keep on those fees.

 

[andyjeffries]

So, at a kukki club, you can get to 1st dan black belt in 2 years (at some clubs, 1 year in korea according to puuini), then a further 1 year to 2nd dan and then 2 more years to 3rd dan? So it is possible to be a 3rd dan in 4-5 years of training? does this happen often or have most 3rd dans been training longer? It just seems awfully quick to get to 3rd dan considering in many styles it would take 5 years or longer to get to 1st dan. No disrespect intended, Im just curious as it takes us 9 years to 3rd dan and Id never really done the maths on that till now.

It took me 4 years to get to 1st Dan and I was training a LOT (most days 2+ hours, post 1st Dan I was training 7 or 8 times per week).

I would say the average in the UK is 3-4 years to 1st Dan. Post 1st Dan it really depends on the club. For example, at our club we generally don't grade as soon as we're time qualified - we worry more about improving technical accuracy. My master last graded 13 years ago. I'd graded 12 years ago up until recently (December last year). Many others at the club have waited 5+ years since their last grading (they're 1st dans).

Is it possible to be a 3rd Dan in 5 years in the UK, yes but it's tight. It's certainly possible in 6 years. Is it normal? I don't think so IMHO.

 

[puunui]

Thank you sir. Would you share in general what you emphasize with 1st dans?

I leave my 1st Dans alone and don't emphasize anything with them. I used to try to keep the momentum going by trying to encourage them to train even harder, but I found that approach didn't work and only left me frustrated when they quit. So now I let 1st Dans do what they want. Many 1st Dans aren't in a listening sort of mindset, just like recent high school graduates are often not in a listening sort of mood. To me, the two biggest pain in the butt dans are 1st Dans and 4th Dans.

 

[StudentCarl]

I leave my 1st Dans alone and don't emphasize anything with them. I used to try to keep the momentum going by trying to encourage them to train even harder, but I found that approach didn't work and only left me frustrated when they quit. So now I let 1st Dans do what they want. Many 1st Dans aren't in a listening sort of mindset, just like recent high school graduates are often not in a listening sort of mood. To me, the two biggest pain in the butt dans are 1st Dans and 4th Dans.

Well, at least that gives me something: don't be a pain in the butt. Good advice anywhere one is a junior.

Thank you sir.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well, at least that gives me something: don't be a pain in the butt. Good advice anywhere one is a junior.

Thank you sir.

Ive found 1st dans to be the quietest and most reserved. For the first time in their tkd career they are part of the big boys and if they want to get "cocky" or over confident there are plenty of higher dans ready to put them back in their place. I remember my first night as a black belt, we were sparring and one of the fifth dans said "oh you're a black belt now, time to play with the big boys", and proceeded to beat me in a way Id never been beaten, theres just no chance of getting cocky with people like that out there. I find 1st gups the worst to deal with, they are like kids in the top grade in primary school and can be quite a handful.

 

[puunui]

Well, at least that gives me something: don't be a pain in the butt. Good advice anywhere one is a junior. Thank you sir.

You don't have to address me as sir. In fact, I would ask that you don't refer to me that way.

I have been reading your posts for a while, and I don't believe that you are in danger of being one of those types of practitioners. The reason why 1st Dans and 4th Dans can *sometimes* become pains in the butt is because they become I guess for want of a better term, more outwardly self centered and overly concerned with their own self importance. It becomes what "I want" or "I feel" or "my opinion", as opposed to what their teacher wants or feels. And if you try to correct them, they sometimes become openly and intentionally hostile and disrespectful, in the same way that a teenager or high school graduate can become defiant. Part of this is natural I think, because both 1st and 4th Dan are transition dans from one stage of development to another higher level of development. But some people never grow out of it. Taekwondo, and all martial arts really, is a journey of self discovery. You find out who you truly are through training, but the good parts and the parts that need working on. The training never lies and it is always evident in what you think say and do.

 

[andyjeffries]

Part of this is natural I think, because both 1st and 4th Dan are transition dans from one stage of development to another higher level of development.

Out of interest, do you see the same problem in 7th Dans? I'm assuming, based on your previous assertion of 3 groups of 3 dan grades, that you also consider 7th Dan a transitional dan?

Or have they generally grown out of it by 7th Dan?

 

[puunui]

Out of interest, do you see the same problem in 7th Dans? I'm assuming, based on your previous assertion of 3 groups of 3 dan grades, that you also consider 7th Dan a transitional dan? Or have they generally grown out of it by 7th Dan?

I don't know about 7th Dans. To tell you the truth, I don't interact with that many. Either they are higher, or lower. There are very very few non-Korean Kukkiwon 7th Dan out there. Many who are 7th Dan are maxed out and won't go any higher, because of age, because they have passed away, because they never learned the Kukkiwon poomsae and don't want to test in Korea for fear of failing, because they have put limits on themselves, they don't want to write a thesis, or other reasons. I will say that the people that I know who are Kukkiwon 7th Dan and higher are as a general rule different from their lower ranked juniors. They feel different, and think differently. More respectful to seniors I would say as a general rule, and more politically astute, at least the ones who are still active.