Goal Setting: Belts, Skill, Status, Competitiveness, Other?

[isshinryuronin]

This thread has a similar name to ones posted a couple of decades ago but had a short, and for me, unsatisfying run, so I thought I'd open the topic again.

Personally, I'm not much of a goal setter, nor am I especially competitive (except when playing poker with my wife.) I know the great majority of achievers would say these things are necessary to advance oneself. Yet, I have been able to reach levels of success in a couple of fields, including MA, without this mindset. As a new white belt, I did have a goal of blue belt (three colors up) because that's what my initial instructor was and I thought he was pretty good, and had a cool name, Rex. I can honestly say that was the only rank goal in my MA career.

I suppose my original goal getting started as a fifteen-year-old was self-confidence, but after a few months this was lost from my general consciousness. After that, I suppose I was like the ox who just keeps walking, a journey with no real destination in mind. Eventually, it will walk a thousand miles and get somewhere he hasn't been. I just had an undefined urge to keep going, and the various ranks I passed and skills I gained were just landmarks along the way. When sparring, I really don't think of winning, just doing it the best I can.

This approach will not work for everyone, probably not for most. But it's worked for me and allowed me to travel far. As I've started this last paragraph, a parable from the ancient Lao Tsu comes to mind:

The Yellow Emperor lost his treasured black pearl. He sent Science to look for it, but to no avail. He asked Philosophy to search, but again, unsuccessfully. (He sent somebody else, too, but I can't remember who, but hey failed as well.) But then, unexpectedly, Nowhere showed up and had the black pearl! He was neither asked, nor even looked for it, but nevertheless, he found the treasure.

What's been your approach to your MA journey?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Good question. I am probably a bit of an unusual case. I have never been a goal-setter for anything. Not my job (I have no 'career'), not my martial arts training, nothing. I just kind of drift through life, doing whatever strikes my fancy, and it all seems to work out OK.

I've been taken to task many a time, usually by management types at work who want me to have a '5 year plan' and a 'career' and to set and achieve personal and professional goals. I'm like yeah, no, it's a job. When it ends I'll get another one. I do the work, you give me the check. Loyalty is a two-way street. I totally understand that if things go south, I'll be cut without the slightest hesitation; why then should I have any weird loyalty to someone who would dump me in a hot second? Let's just keep it professional. I work, you pay. If it stops working out for either of us, no hard feelings, check you later.

That's not to say I never accomplish anything. I've done the things I wanted to do and enjoyed the journey. I just didn't do much of anything to end up where I have, other than kind of drift with the tide. I get where I'm going by not caring much how or when I get there, you know?

With martial arts training, I wanted to do something to lose some weight and get in shape and add some self-defense. I remembered Isshinyru from my time in the Marine Corps, looked around, and found a well-regarded dojo just down the street from where I lived at the time. I started taking classes. At first, I could not even finish the warm up exercises. I did the one thing that has always helped me in lieu of having a goal - I have perseverence. I just kept coming to class. I got better slowly.

When I was trying to learn some new technique, I'd do my best, but I also would not get overly upset when it didn't come easily. I just relaxed and kept at it, and eventually I got it. Just let it sort of flow over me and wait for it to sink in; it always does in time.

I'm just not driven to accomplish or do or be anything in particular. Things will work out one way or another.

That's not to say I don't take things seriously; I do. And I care about my martial arts training and I take very seriously the notion that when I teach the kids, I'm passing along a positive adult role model that they can depend upon to be the kind of person they think back on fondly. It's a serious responsibility and I take it seriously. I just don't have goals in any kind of traditional sense. Stuff just happens.

 

[_Simon_]

Also not much of a goal-setter, and I tend to go where my interest lies. Of course sometimes goals arise naturally, eg when I got the go ahead for my most recent grading, I really, really worked hard leading up to, and I was driven by it.

My approach my MA journey started out wanting to be or feel strong. Similarly that also faded and I was drawn to something deeper that MA provides... no amount of goalsetting can touch that fount, and it's almost like goals and that mindset is totally foreign to the depth of emersing myself in this process... it's just a different language altogether. On a different level, always seeking to improve and develop, but it's not like there's a perfect objective goal or end-game I can visualise that entails what that even means. Mine is more based on feeling...

And like you say @isshinryuronin , I tend to just get better in just engaging in that process, rather than having a goal.

And thank you, @Bill Mattocks , that's actually a really great encouragement to me. I've always felt out of place... in a world and environment that has constantly told me I need to set goals, have a "5 year plan", and that I need to know exactly what I wanted to do and be... I had no idea on so many levels and felt almost wrong. It's always nice to know others have different lifestyles and approaches to life, and that it's okay to live life a bit more intuitively.

 

[Fungus]

What drives me in MA as well as other discilinces is an (sometimes obsessive) urge toe gain new insights and skills, it is the intellectual satisfaction that drives and satisfies me. I don't like to do things half-hearted, as i feel like I dissapoint myself doing it. It is hard to define the static goal in advance. I tend to just know, when I make progress. It is not about external symbols, ranks or degrees. My philosophy has always been that if I have to ask my teacher if I got it right, it means I do not understand it. When you get it right, you will just know. Seeking external confirmation is a sign of that you have more to learn. I focus more on the questions here and now, not on some hypothetical remote goal.

The main practical goal of formal ranks, is that some ranks may be "required" in order to say attend advanced classes. It's prerequisitie to keep learning.

 

[Gyakuto]

Personally, I'm not much of a goal setter, nor am I especially competitive (except when playing poker with my wife.) I know the great majority of achievers would say these things are necessary to advance oneself.

Scientific research shows that goal setting is a better way of making progress.

Yet, I have been able to reach levels of success in a couple of fields, including MA, without this mindset.

Maybe you’d be successful in more fields if you set goal

As a new white belt, I did have a goal of blue belt (three colors up) because that's what my initial instructor was and I thought he was pretty good, and had a cool name, Rex. I can honestly say that was the only rank goal in my MA career.

So you have set goals and achieved them. Goal setting doesn’t have to be über aggressive, like those people who places motivational Post It notes all around their abode and shout at their reflection that they must ”sell, sell, sell!” and then slapping themselves in the face before even brushing their teeth in the morning.

After that, I suppose I was like the ox who just keeps walking, a journey with no real destination in mind. Eventually, it will walk a thousand miles and get somewhere he hasn't been.

No it won’t and there’s your fallacy. All our behaviours are driven by a ‘goal-action-reward’ paradigm and once reward is removed from the system, it collapses. It’s how our brains are wired to survive.

I just had an undefined urge to keep going, and the various ranks I passed and skills I gained were just landmarks along the way.

Just because you couldn’t/can’t define the goal, it doesn’t mean there wasn’t one, however subliminal.

When sparring, I really don't think of winning, just doing it the best I can.

‘….doing the best you can.’ There’s your goal, albeit ill-defined but solidly present.

This approach will not work for everyone, probably not for most. But it's worked for me and allowed me to travel far.

Do you see now that you did in fact set a goal of ‘doing your best’?

As I've started this last paragraph, a parable from the ancient Lao Tsu comes to mind:

The Yellow Emperor lost his treasured black pearl. He sent Science to look for it, but to no avail.

Science isn't a thing,m it’s a process. This Yellow Emporer guy was pretty i’ll-informed!

He asked Philosophy to search, but again, unsuccessfully.….

….again a process

(He sent somebody else, too, but I can't remember who, but hey failed as well.)

None of us are surprised by that knowing how dim this Yellow dude was.

But then, unexpectedly, Nowhere showed up and had the black pearl! He was neither asked, nor even looked for it, but nevertheless, he found the treasure.

He’d’ve been wise to contact his doctor for a dementia test at this point.

What's been your approach to your MA journey?

Enjoy what I’m doing (pleasure is the strongest motivator) follow the guidelines and advice set by my teacher, if the art has a stepwise goal system then follow it, never miss a training session……use the fanciest kit available to humankind.

 

[Gyakuto]

Good question. I am probably a bit of an unusual case. I have never been a goal-setter for anything. Not my job (I have no 'career'), not my martial arts training, nothing. I just kind of drift through life, doing whatever strikes my fancy, and it all seems to work out OK.

I've been taken to task many a time, usually by management types at work who want me to have a '5 year plan' and a 'career' and to set and achieve personal and professional goals. I'm like yeah, no, it's a job. When it ends I'll get another one. I do the work, you give me the check. Loyalty is a two-way street. I totally understand that if things go south, I'll be cut without the slightest hesitation; why then should I have any weird loyalty to someone who would dump me in a hot second? Let's just keep it professional. I work, you pay. If it stops working out for either of us, no hard feelings, check you later.

That's not to say I never accomplish anything. I've done the things I wanted to do and enjoyed the journey. I just didn't do much of anything to end up where I have, other than kind of drift with the tide. I get where I'm going by not caring much how or when I get there, you know?

You irritate me, Bill (). Get a piece of paper and start planning your life. You can thank me when you’re Emperor of Moonbase Clavius.

With martial arts training, I wanted to do something to lose some weight and get in shape and add some self-defense.

That’s a bloody goal!!

I remembered Isshinyru from my time in the Marine Corps, looked around, and found a well-regarded dojo just down the street from where I lived at the time. I started taking classes. At first, I could not even finish the warm up exercises. I did the one thing that has always helped me in lieu of having a goal - I have perseverence. I just kept coming to class. I got better slowly.

reward-action-goal, Bill!

When I was trying to learn some new technique, I'd do my best, but I also would not get overly upset when it didn't come easily.

A sensible goal and being kind to yourself, but still a bast*rd goal

I just relaxed and kept at it, and eventually I got it. Just let it sort of flow over me and wait for it to sink in; it always does in time.

I'm just not driven to accomplish or do or be anything in particular. Things will work out one way or another.

I’m glad you didn’t make the ‘I have a dream…’ or make Kennedy’s Duke University speech. We’d still have racial inequality () and no Velcro/Teflon.

That's not to say I don't take things seriously; I do.

<excited anticipation>

And I care about my martial arts training and I take very seriously the notion that when I teach the kids, I'm passing along a positive adult role model that they can depend upon to be the kind of person they think back on fondly. It's a serious responsibility and I take it seriously. I just don't have goals in any kind of traditional sense. Stuff just happens.

Then I’d suggest you do have (very noble) goals, Bill, you just don’t recognise then because you’re under the impression they need to be cutting, thrusting plans committed to stone tablets with Excel spread sheets and sh*t.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And thank you, @Bill Mattocks , that's actually a really great encouragement to me. I've always felt out of place... in a world and environment that has constantly told me I need to set goals, have a "5 year plan", and that I need to know exactly what I wanted to do and be... I had no idea on so many levels and felt almost wrong. It's always nice to know others have different lifestyles and approaches to life, and that it's okay to live life a bit more intuitively.

"Where do you see yourself in five years?"

Dude, I don't know. Ask me in five years.

"If you don't set goals, you'll never get anywhere."

OK with me. I don't have anywhere to get.

People have been telling me to set personal and professional goals all my life. Here at the end of my time employed, I look back and see success, accomplishments, but they just organically happened. And I still don't have a 'career' and have never felt the lack. I succeed because I'm good at what I do, I like what I do, I get along with people and communicate well, and I've been lucky.

I continue to train in martial arts because I enjoy it. I most likely will not receive any more promotions and that is absolutely fine, I haven't done anything to deserve another. My martial arts goal? Keep training, I guess. Someday soon, I won't be able to. Maybe I'll write a book then.

 

[Gyakuto]

"Where do you see yourself in five years?"

Dude, I don't know. Ask me in five years.

Fails the job interview for shelf stacking in the local supermarket. Parents are so disappointed.

"If you don't set goals, you'll never get anywhere."

OK with me. I don't have anywhere to get.

Parents cry over their child’s impending difficult future.

People have been telling me to set personal and professional goals all my life. Here at the end of my time employed, I look back and see success, accomplishments, but they just organically happened. And I still don't have a 'career' and have never felt the lack. I succeed because I'm good at what I do, I like what I do, I get along with people and communicate well, and I've been lucky.

I continue to train in martial arts because I enjoy it. I most likely will not receive any more promotions and that is absolutely fine, I haven't done anything to deserve another. My martial arts goal? Keep training, I guess.

That’s a goal.

Someday soon, I won't be able to. Maybe I'll write a book then.

Another goal.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You irritate me, Bill (). Get a piece of paper and start planning your life. You can thank me when you’re Emperor of Moonbase Clavius.

That’s a bloody goal!!

reward-action-goal, Bill!

A sensible goal and being kind to yourself, but still a bast*rd goal

I’m glad you didn’t make the ‘I have a dream…’ or make Kennedy’s Duke University speech. We’d still have racial inequality () and no Velcro/Teflon.

<excited anticipation>

Then I’d suggest you do have (very noble) goals, Bill, you just don’t recognise then because you’re under the impression they need to be cutting, thrusting plans committed to stone tablets with Excel spread sheets and sh*t.

I always thought of goals as including methods, otherwise they're just desires. If I have any methods to achieve my goals, they've always been unknown to me.

For example, back in my single days, I'd take my annual vacation by putting a cooler and my old military sleeping bag in my truck, and driving whatever direction looked interesting. Every fork in the road became a coin toss. I'd get lost, stuck, backtrack, sleep rough, have adventures, meet people, and collect memories. 2 weeks later I'd drift back home. My goal in taking vacation was to have one. No more detailed than that.

If you're being charitable, you might say my goals are unconventional and spur-of-the-moment. I just go where the wind takes me.

I've done dozens of different things, lived all over, quit jobs because I got bored, gone bankrupt and started over, and never once thought things wouldn't eventually work out just fine. And they have.

And, of course, not watching TV has something to do with it. Watching TV teaches you to want things.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Fails the job interview for shelf stacking in the local supermarket. Parents are so disappointed.

Parents cry over their child’s impending difficult future.

That’s a goal.

Another goal.

My current job (just passed 5 years with the company, shockingly long time for me), one of the people who interviewed me recently confided my being offered the job was a foregone conclusion because they felt I was interviewing them. If I get an interview, I usually get offered the job. Something to do with confidence, plus not being bothered if I do or if I don’t. I guess.

 

[Gyakuto]

I always thought of goals as including methods, otherwise they're just desires. If I have any methods to achieve my goals, they've always been unknown to me.

I suppose that’s true but isn’t ‘going to the class’ a method? Isn’t ‘following instruction accurately and practising it‘ a method?

For example, back in my single days, I'd take my annual vacation by putting a cooler and my old military sleeping bag in my truck, and driving whatever direction looked interesting. Every fork in the road became a coin toss. I'd get lost, stuck, backtrack, sleep rough, have adventures, meet people, and collect memories. 2 weeks later I'd drift back home. My goal in taking vacation was to have one. No more detailed than that.

That’s your way of having a rest, not achieving something worthwhile in the martial arts. I like my holiday to be planned meticulously, but that plan doesn’t have to necessarily be followed meticulously.

If you're being charitable, you might say my goals are unconventional and spur-of-the-moment. I just go where the wind takes me.

Have you read Dice Man?

I've done dozens of different things, lived all over, quit jobs because I got bored, gone bankrupt and started over, and never once thought things wouldn't eventually work out just fine. And they have.

I’m not suggesting this is you, Bill, but when I was a magistrate, we had a group of regular attenders to the court room and the common denominator (explained to me by social workers, probation officers etc) between all of them was a ‘chaotic lifestyle’ where they planned very little and neither were they inclined to. It led to unplanned children, associations with criminal types, crimes to support these children and a drug habit to which they subscribed to numb their pain of their unfulfilling existence. You could see this pattern developing but there was little one could do (in a librarian society).

And, of course, not watching TV has something to do with it. Watching TV teaches you to want things.

Get a telly, Bill and watch Love Island/Rupaul’s Drag Race. You know you want to.

 

[Gyakuto]

My current job (just passed 5 years with the company, shockingly long time for me), one of the people who interviewed me recently confided my being offered the job was a foregone conclusion because they felt I was interviewing them. If I get an interview, I usually get offered the job. Something to do with confidence, plus not being bothered if I do or if I don’t. I guess.

Parent weep at their child’s overconfidence and arrogant attitude

You clearly have amazing qualities that your not sharing with us out of modesty.

 

[isshinryuronin]

All our behaviours are driven by a ‘goal-action-reward’ paradigm.....Just because you couldn’t/can’t define the goal, it doesn’t mean there wasn’t one, however subliminal.

I agree that these statements are true, but, Gyakuto, you took my post WAAAY too literally. Of course, a certain amount of goal setting is necessary. My opening line was, "I'm not much of a goal setter." When I drive, my goal is to get where I'm going and not to get killed on the road (something increasingly difficult these days of unaware drivers). When I started a business, I figured out overhead and how much I wanted to net to live a certain lifestyle, thus setting a goal of $/monthly gross revenue.

I attended a high-level sales/motivation seminar for one particular job I had, and thought I'd set a goal of owning a boat as part of an exercise. Many years and jobs later I had a lakefront house with a private dock... and a boat! But the boat was not a result of that long-ago hypothetical forgotten goal, but rather taking advantage of where I found myself at that time. May have been a subliminal goal from 30 yrs prior, but certainly not a driving force that guided my life choices.

I had the highest grade in my college Astronomy class going into the final, after which I ended up with the second highest grade in the class, as my professor informed me (with a friendly smirk). Didn't bother me in the least. Getting the highest (or second highest) grade wasn't even remotely a goal. I just did what I did and let the chips fall as they may. I graduated cum laude, but that wasn't a goal either. I didn't even know it was a thing.

Another job I had was as a speaker where I addressed about 10,000 high school seniors during my stint (a company record that I did not seek. The main topic? GOAL SETTING. So, I'm well familiar with the subject, thank you.

The point of my original post was that, for me, external motivation and conscious goal setting is not what drives me, especially in MA. Sometimes becoming overly concerned with goals can interfere with one's natural process as we can get blinded by the target.

 

[Gyakuto]

I agree that these statements are true, but, Gyakuto, you took my post WAAAY too literally. Of course, a certain amount of goal setting is necessary. My opening line was, "I'm not much of a goal setter." When I drive, my goal is to get where I'm going and not to get killed on the road (something increasingly difficult these days of unaware drivers). When I started a business, I figured out overhead and how much I wanted to net to live a certain lifestyle, thus setting a goal of $/monthly gross revenue.

Ah yes I did miss that!

The point of my original post was that, for me, external motivation and conscious goal setting is not what drives me, especially in MA. Sometimes becoming overly concerned with goals can interfere with one's natural process as we can get blinded by the target.

Yes, I fear that has happened to me! My next grading (my final) became an obsession and ruined my pleasure of my art.

 

[isshinryuronin]

CORRECTION:

Nowhere showed up and had the black pearl! He was neither asked, nor even looked for it, but nevertheless, he found the treasure.

As I said, it's been a very long time since I read Lao Tsu, and I just now remembered that it was not Nowhere that returned the black pearl (actually called the night-colored pearl in the story) but rather Nothingness (the Void) who should get the credit for finding it. Not an entity I'd want holding a grudge against me, so in the interest of accuracy I want to set the record straight.

BTW, Lao Tsu related many parables that I found applicable to MA. One of my most enjoyable reads.

 

[Oily Dragon]

CORRECTION:

As I said, it's been a very long time since I read Lao Tsu, and I just now remembered that it was not Nowhere that returned the black pearl (actually called the night-colored pearl in the story) but rather Nothingness (the Void) who should get the credit for finding it. Not an entity I'd want holding a grudge against me, so in the interest of accuracy I want to set the record straight.

BTW, Lao Tsu related many parables that I found applicable to MA. One of my most enjoyable reads.

So, I hate correcting people.

But your translation of the Black Pearl myth using names like Science, Philosophy, and nowhere/nothingness/void are all wrong.

I have a whole pdf on this from the University of Sao Paulo.

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/mod/resource/view.php?id=3170560

 

[Oily Dragon]

Science isn't a thing,m it’s a process. This Yellow Emporer guy was pretty i’ll-informed!

….again a process

None of us are surprised by that knowing how dim this Yellow dude was.

He’d’ve been wise to contact his doctor for a dementia test at this point.

You are analyzing a bad translation of ancient Chinese literature. "Science", "philosophy" etc are not what's in the original text, which is a lot deeper.

If you want the gist, look, I found the black pearl. Just came to me like that.

This the Way.

 

[Gyakuto]

CORRECTION:



As I said, it's been a very long time since I read Lao Tsu, and I just now remembered that it was not Nowhere that returned the black pearl (actually called the night-colored pearl in the story) but rather Nothingness (the Void) who should get the credit for finding it. Not an entity I'd want holding a grudge against me, so in the interest of accuracy I want to set the record straight.

BTW, Lao Tsu related many parables that I found applicable to MA. One of my most enjoyable reads.

Ah I was only pulling your leg!

 

[isshinryuronin]

So, I hate correcting people.

But your translation of the Black Pearl myth using names like Science, Philosophy, and nowhere/nothingness/void are all wrong.

I have a whole pdf on this from the University of Sao Paulo.

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/mod/resource/view.php?id=3170560

ANOTHER CORRECTION: The book was The Way of Chuang Tzu. Amazingly, I remembered the translator/editor? of my copy, a paperback version of the one pictured below: Father Thomas Merton, a man of some repute according to Wikipedia - Monk and scholar in Asian religion and spirituality. I can't comment on if the U. of Sao Paulo is more accurate than Father Merton's compilation. Please note you referred to this particular story as a "myth," and like most myths various versions can be found, yet usually conveying the same essential message.

 

[Gyakuto]

So, I hate correcting people.