Go Ahead and Read The Book, Dudes

[granfire]

This is what Sifu means when he says that every single movement must be done correctly. Getting thru the choreography in and of itself doesn't matter.

maybe not meaning, but purpose, past the point of looking pretty...

 

[Sukerkin]

Video has it's place in tuition for some people, as has been said eloquently in this thread already. For others it will not work so well. That is just the nature of learning.

As a post-lesson memory-jogger it is fine, as a pre-lesson prepartory aid, I am not so sure.

Some people will undoubtedly get the point of the video and come to class with the basic choerography ready to be recalled. Others will grab the wrong end of the stick and will have to unlearn what they have learned (even worse for assiduous students who practise a lot before class).

My iai sensei has done some videos in the past of some of our schools forms done really slowly with a lot of pauses at the key points. I can see the purpose of them as a 'style check' i.e. a sort of "Am I really doing this the way sensei taught me?" deal.

Regardless, other than knowing beforehand what the general movements are going to be in an as yet unlearned kata I don't see that video will have much value. It might even be a bit of a detriment for some students.

The flip-side is that some people are going to pre-learn bad habits anyhow - I know I did, as I bought the most commonly used book for our style and tried to practise from that before I started lessons (I didn't want to have no idea what I was doing from the start ). In retrospect it was a terrible idea as sensei had to correct the wrong ideas I had formed :lol:. But it did mean that the overall 'shape' of the forms was not new to me when I started.

Swings and roundabouts - some will gain and some will lose, I reckon, when it comes to video 'homework'.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Thoughts? If you were a relative beginner, would you mind your teacher putting this type of trust and responsibility upon you?

If I was a beginner and this was my teacher's attitude I'd be seriously loking for a new school. In the mean time I'd ask about paying half the monthly dues. If an instructor is only going to do half of his job I should only be paying half the price.

If someone wants to only teach people who have pervious MA experience there's nothing wrong with that. You could advertise that your school only accepts people who have rank the same style already, or even a related style, I suppose. You cold advertise that you only teach seminars for people of a certain rank and up. I've heard that Juan Moreno, IIRC, runs a school where he trains people for WTF sparring competitions and they have to already have a black belt. You could be like that.

Of course I don't think most people would be interested in learning that way but it's certainly possible.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

My thoughts are if I have to learn 50% of my material from a book or dvd because the teacher is selfish,lazy then I am going to find a different school.

I am curious where you got the 50% ratio from, but that's actually not too important I guess. Are you amenable to ANY instruction/remediation at all through non-face-to-face interactions? If so, where would you reach your limit?

No right or wrong answer, obviously. I merely seek to understand your perspective further.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sigh.

bye

 

[dancingalone]

What he means is, if you just want to "do" the form, just complete the choreography, then you haven't learned anything. I do not dispute that one can use a video to mimick movement. You can learn the choreography and even make it look reasonably similar to the video if you work hard at it. But you haven't learned a thing, other than mimickry because you don't really understand what you are doing. This is what Sifu means when he says that every single movement must be done correctly. Getting thru the choreography in and of itself doesn't matter. Every movement within the form is teaching some very specific skills and you don't tap into those lessons by simply mimicking the choreography. You need very competent instruction to get those lessons. Telling your students "go ahead with this video and take a crack at it.." is doing them a disservice because you are really teaching them that mimickry is all that matters. Step here, punch here, block, whatever. But what are you really doing with that step, that punch, that block? Where is energy and power coming from? How are you using your stances, your footwork? A punch is not the same as every punch, nor block, nor step. There are different ways to do them, if you don't know the difference you won't even know what you are looking at.

I don't know TKD, maybe choreography is really what TKD forms are all about and there's nothing more to it. All I can do is speak for what I study, and the stuff that I do is much more than that.

Maybe our perspectives with our different systems just do not allow us to see eye to eye on this. That's fine. Like I said, I won't try to tell you that you cannot do this, that would be silly. I'm not your dad, I don't have any authority over you. But in the context of this discussion, I'll say very clearly that I absolutely do not believe it's a good idea to teach in this way.

Choreography is an important first step to learning forms. To me choreography would be an excellent candidate for instruction via video. It's just a list of physical actions strung together after all. If you know the individual movements from class, the video is a perfect reminder for you to work from.

And from there you move on, you progress. Only time with a qualified teacher will teach you what all these motions can mean or how to perform them all in the first place. Only personal instruction can help you develop faijin or koshi or whatever other thing we are after in training. No video can take the place of that interaction, and I don't see anyone making that argument. I certainly am not.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to believe video can be a part of the same learning process either. Educational psychology and education design continue to be fields where researchers delve for improvements. Physical performance coaching has benefited to a great degree from some of that research. I think martial arts can too.

 

[Flying Crane]

Choreography is an important first step to learning forms. To me choreography would be an excellent candidate for instruction via video. It's just a list of physical actions strung together after all. If you know the individual movements from class, the video is a perfect reminder for you to work from.

And from there you move on, you progress. Only time with a qualified teacher will teach you what all these motions can mean or how to perform them all in the first place. Only personal instruction can help you develop faijin or koshi or whatever other thing we are after in training. No video can take the place of that interaction, and I don't see anyone making that argument. I certainly am not.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to believe video can be a part of the same learning process either. Educational psychology and education design continue to be fields where researchers delve for improvements. Physical performance coaching has benefited to a great degree from some of that research. I think martial arts can too.

well, I don't think we are going to reach an agreement, other than to agree to disagree. I'm OK with that, I don't feel like I gotta convince you and win the fight. I've laid out my position and my reasons for it. Maybe our specific experiences lead us to different conclusions, and that's no problem.

 

[dortiz]

For me the answer is it depends..
I have a tough time learning but once I get it I am so on it. Especially forms with so many movements, it takes me many slow repetitions to learn the movement. It was much easier for me learning forms even at a higher rank when I could spend hours at home with Video learning the core movement and then focus on class time with a teacher refining the details.
It would frustrate me and my teacher the way I learn if we had to keep going over and over basic turns etc, but I am idiot that way until it sinks. Videos allow me to be a well trained idiot : )
I think if done right it allows the time spent with each other to really be valuable by working on really important parts.
I hate long distance learning but totally advocate using Video in a regular training relationship.
FEAR TECHNOLOGY!! lol, why not go home and watch what you just saw in class and work on it a few more hours..not much different than doing that in the corner of the Dojang. Again, make sure there is feedback as soon as possible.

 

[ForeverStudent]

I think it's thing depending on many parameters: what age is student we talking about, what style is in question, who is the guy on the video or behind the book..and after all student and his intelligency and ability to incorporate what he saw with principles of his art and with what his teacher told him.

This last is main reason to put one straight answer, and it is that learning from book or videos is bad for beginners, since they don't understand principles yet.

I think, of the same important as information, is interpretation of information.

So, let's imagine a scale where left is bad and right is good. What student is younger, lower grade, and time spent in art, pointer moves to the left of the scale.

What student is older, higher grade (1. degree perhaps), and what time spent in the art is longer, scale moves to the right.

But, one more about books and videos..my, many times confirmed experience is...one seminar is worth as 10 books and videos.

 

[StudentCarl]

I use video to get the sequence of steps for all new forms I learn. It just takes too many reps with an instructor--I'm not willing to wait that long over multiple classes. Yes, I start with an instructor showing me the form. Doing it a few times with the instructor gives me the skeletal stucture, so I know enough to verify that the video is accurate. Then I work with the video until I have the steps memorized. The key is that I'm not looking for mechanics or technique quality from the video--only the sequence. I rely on my master and higher level students to get the mechanics/technique. With this technique I learn the core of a new form within a few days, enough to begin polishing it.

Video is a visual aid, just a different format than a poster or book. Video shows motion, so it shows how to get from A to B. I think video can be useful, but both instructor and student need to understand the uses and limits of it. It's not a substitute for instruction, but that was not the topic of this thread--it can be a useful supplement.

I also think that some students are more capable of using materials like this than others, so results can vary.

 

[oaktree]

I am curious where you got the 50% ratio from, but that's actually not too important I guess. Are you amenable to ANY instruction/remediation at all through non-face-to-face interactions? If so, where would you reach your limit?

No right or wrong answer, obviously. I merely seek to understand your perspective further.

I used 50% to suggest I am learning 1/2 of my material from books or video as a new student. It could be more or less I suppose depending on how much the teacher wishes me to learn from books or video.

If a teacher instead of teaching me how to properly perform a particular kick refers to me to watch a video then I will find a teacher who teaches.

I have no problem after learning a technique that the teacher references me videos or books to better understand the technique or open up discussion.

A teacher should be the first form of instruction for beginner so that the basics are solid,this also builds the interpersonal realtionship and trust between student and teacher.

I am sure your intent is good but in my opinion it is not the method of choice.

 

[clfsean]

Books for outright learning MA = bad
Books for reference material already known = ok

TCMA has a long history of writing down materials. It's good to have reference materials, but never materials for outright learning. In most cases, you couldn't perform the technique without prior knowledge of the technique. Techniques were hidden in poetic name form... Bak Hou Chut Dong - White Monkey Exits the Cave or Foi Sing Tek Dao - Scholar God Kicks the Bushel for examples. There's no way of knowing what they are unless you'd already practiced the technique, let alone how to connect the body.

Videos are worse since it's generally only one angle or two at the max & you miss fine parts of body mechanics & control, but yet it can be "seen" so is often misinterpreted as "right".

Just my $.00002 or whatever it's valued at today.

 

[dortiz]

Videos are worse since it's generally only one angle or two at the max & you miss fine parts of body mechanics & control, but yet it can be "seen" so is often misinterpreted as "right".

You should see the newest Kukkiwon videos on DVDs. Multiple angles and views as well as practical demos of techniques. Again not for a beginer but a heck of a tool.

 

[granfire]

Videos are worse since it's generally only one angle or two at the max & you miss fine parts of body mechanics & control, but yet it can be "seen" so is often misinterpreted as "right".

Boy, do I hear you!
I mean the old set we had wasn't bad, it actually had a second view, but much smaller than the main one. I think the new set left that out. But we had to work off a CD with soso quality, somewhat of a 'master copy' the school owner could not duplicate so we watched it on a smallish TV mounted above head level in the lobby...trying to figure out what the old man in the movie tried to do.

You should see the newest Kukkiwon videos on DVDs. Multiple angles and views as well as practical demos of techniques. Again not for a beginer but a heck of a tool.

sounds awesome!

 

[dancingalone]

Videos are worse since it's generally only one angle or two at the max & you miss fine parts of body mechanics & control, but yet it can be "seen" so is often misinterpreted as "right".

I think we all look at the existing videos out there and see their poor design and construction and then think that is all that is possible. It is not.

If we are prepared to sink enough resources into the project, it's quite possible to make something with far more content, both from a technical production viewpoint as well as from a technical knowledge perspective. I'd said before that I could teach a 2 hour class on just the 'simple' reverse punch alone, and at the end of the class I'm quite confident that someone applying the information diligently could develop a good reverse punch themselves over time in conjunction with some further face time with me. It would not be a big stretch to take that same seminar and edit it for clarity and amplification along with multiple camera angles.

You'll never see anything like that on the market. Because it is not financially feasible to produce a 2 hour video on just the reverse punch (or just 1 half of a kata or any other topic that requires depth for explanation). Not many people would buy it, and you could not recoup the cost of development through sales. It would take someone being willing to take financial losses on the project - someone who realizes the audience for this stuff is largely the people who are already in his class and thus their learning and growth would be the reward rather than money.

I'm working on it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Videos are worse since it's generally only one angle or two at the max & you miss fine parts of body mechanics & control, but yet it can be "seen" so is often misinterpreted as "right".

You should see the newest Kukkiwon videos on DVDs. Multiple angles and views as well as practical demos of techniques. Again not for a beginer but a heck of a tool.

FWIW this was what I considered a landmark for the time when the ITF CD Rom was done 15 + years ago. Click on any of the 4 sides of the video and the perspective / view changed to that point.