getting to the heart of taiji

[East Winds]

Yiliquan1,

Thank you! Keep training and one day you may begin to understand the internal nature of Taijiquan.

Incidentally, what form of Taijiquan do you Yiliquan guys train?


Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

 

[chufeng]

EastWinds,

It just seemed from the posts here, that that type of training was the be all and end all of training! That the fighting aspect was ALL important!

The "new age" taiji practitioners can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack...THIS type of taiji is prevalent in the U.S.

Certainly, there are some schools that offer decent instruction...and the majority of training revolves around form practice, qigong, and push hands...with the occasional combat applications thrown in for good measure...

The emphasis in YiLiQuan is NOT to fight...
The choice NOT to fight must come from a position of strength...
The ethics, or morality, of choosing not to fight are MEANINGLESS if you don't have the ability to do so...
We do train in the combat applications...hoping that we never need to use them...our training is realistic in that the attacks are full force...the defenses though, follow the tenet of non-resistance and softness...the counters are intrinsic in nature...

What methods of TaiJi do we train in?
The simplified 24 step form is our beginner's form...
The much longer "combined" set is our senior form...
I realize that neither of these forms are representative of Yang or Chen style TaiJi...but they are the forms we use and they DO teach many of the fundamentals of TaiJi...
Our other internal arts include XingYi and BaGua...

WE don't claim to know as much about TaiJi as you do...
WE don't think that any ONE system has all of the answers...
WE don't think that you have all of the answers but we are willing to share ideas...

To assume that Yiliquan1 does not have a grasp of the "internal" is like gazing into a crystal ball...I assure you he does understand...but he and I both can learn more...

Good day

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds
Yiliquan1,

Thank you! Keep training and one day you may begin to understand the internal nature of Taijiquan.

Excuse me?

At what point did I somehow get rated as not knowing the internal nature of Taijiquan?

Here's the thing -

A punch does not "teach" a philosophical principle. It may be used as an allegorical reference to a philosophical principle to communicate a larger meaning, but a punch is still a punch (until it isn't).

The practical application of that punch is not to display to the student a meditative concept, but rather to crush flesh and bone beneath it (until such force is no longer needed).

I do fully understand (the beginnings) of "internal philosophy," however my understanding simply finds a different method of expression than yours...

Yiliquan is primarily a philosophy that finds its expression and a simple method of communication via physical techniques and methods of dealing with incoming aggression. At first you learn to fight. Later you learn how to use the exact strategies and techniques you learned to fight with to deal with non-physical attacks.

I think you and I have similar understandings, just, as I said, different expressions of our understandings.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[East Winds]

Chufeng and Yiliquan1,

Thanks for the information. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I also teach 24 step, but only for health. However I do teach it as I would teach Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan and not in the "Wushu" or "Competition" way that you normally see it. Interestingly enough, there was no member of the Yang family on the committee which formulated this form. I have seen the combined form performed many times but have no experience of it myself.

It seems that you guys don't place much emphasis of pushing hands. Can I ask how you train and practise your Jings (Jins)?

Best wishes



"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied "Yes, keep doing it!"

 

[Taiji fan]

What methods of TaiJi do we train in? The simplified 24 step form is our beginner's form...
The much longer "combined" set is our senior form...
I realize that neither of these forms are representative of Yang or Chen style TaiJi...but they are the forms we use and they DO teach many of the fundamentals of TaiJi...

now I understand why our discussions tend to go awry, and also possibly what the Chinese gentleman was refering to in the interview. While these forms were devised in China, unlike the Cheng Man Ching forms, they really have little bearing on what it is like to study a family style.......this is not a my style is better than yours statement.....I studied the simplified form for 8 years continually and it was only upon meeting and subsequently studying with a Trad. Yang teacher that I saw what a huge difference there were in the styles. The simplified form teaches little more than how to move slowley. It has become a form more for show than to have even any more than superficial health benefits. The moves are all still applications but, the over emphaised, embellished moves render the applications useless when practiced as per the form. This is not the case in Trad. Yang where the movements are, at the very basic level, mechanically the same as the way they are 'performed' in the sequence. There is a feel good factor when going through simplified, the same as any kind of movement, but to really get into the internal aspect of taiji means understanding (at quite some depth) why the body is lined up the way it is and the understanding (by that I mean demonstrating in your actual practice...not reading a book and being able to recite it) the method of the 10 essences. It is a hugely complex art in this way.
My teacher is from Yang Zhen Ji's lineage (having studied directly with him). He is not the favoured representitive of the family by the Chinese government, his taiji is different than even Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun (who is an acomplished taiji player). If you get a chance to experience a teacher who studies the family style, don't pass it up, you really will be astounded. I abandoned the simplifed form and wondered what the hell I had been doing all those years after just a couple of sessions with my current teacher.
East Winds: Interesting that you teach the simplifed form " I do teach it as I would teach Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan" I guess that would probably be a good way doing it, but I bet that means you are not popular with the establishement.........Just thinking over moves you would have to modify....grasp sparrows tail for a start!

 

[East Winds]

Taijifan,

Yes, you are correct. None of my students would ever win a "Simplified" competition. I teach 24 step, to incorporate Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences (with particular emphasis on the first 5). This of course changes the postural and structural requirements that are normally present in the "competition" form. It does however return a more representative "Yang" flavour to the form. It is also the way Master Christopher Pei of the United States Wushu Academy teaches that particular form.

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, Yes, keep doing it"

Best wishes

 

[Taiji fan]

What I found with the way simplified was taught (at least to me) was that the emphasis was on performance and not structure. The movemnt from frame to frame smoothly was more important than establishing your root and really getting an understanding of the weight changes. Often we would be shifting the weight before the lead foot was in full contact with the ground.
the reason I thought of grasp sparrows tail was the application of the roll back into squeeze...we were taught to do a large sweeping movement for roll back, which at the end, we let our opponant go and then went on to squeeze. My teacher places alot of emphaisis on the first essence (high spirit) and that without it the otheres can not be in place sucessfully. This was never even mentioned in the 8 years I sudied simplified. Maybe I just had a bad teacher...it is always possible to be wise after the event..:asian:

 

[East Winds]

Can't argue with any of that Taijifan!

It has been said on this board that "real" Taiji does not exist any more. "Real" Taiji DOES exist!!! It is the original essence that has been lost with the introduction and proliferation of "modern" competition forms. (24 step simplified, 48 combined and 88 step). They contain none of Yang Cheng-fu's original 10 essences. And as you say Taijifan, if you do not even incorporate the first essence (High Spirit), how can you hope to be practising "real" taiji? And by that I mean fighting taiji!!! The Wushu organisations have a lot to answer for!

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied, "Yes, keep doing it!"

Very best wishes