T
TkdWarrior
Guest
don't worry u were not embarrased by Pure TKDist 
BTW i do Sun(73) & Yang(24/42) styles
-TkdWarrior-
don't worry u were not embarrased by Pure TKDist BTW i do Sun(73) & Yang(24/42) styles
-TkdWarrior-
Y
yilisifu
Guest
Yes, if you read the histories of these grothers (as I'm sure you have) and others who became well-known in the art, you can easily see that their training was extremely strenuous and even brutal. Not at all what we see nowadays (what I call "fields and flowers" Taiji).....
F
Field Cricket
Guest
I would be very interested in knowing what kinds of drills you are referring to. All I have encountered in a supposedly martial arts oriented version of Sun style Taiji is push hands, forms and Qigong.
Are they similar to, for example, Ba Gua body conditioning exercises and two man fighting sets?
FC
Y
yilisifu
Guest
Well, it doesn't involve the same measure of body twisting that one sees in Bagua.....I nevcer had much use for two-man sets as they tend to develop fixed responses.
But.
The practice of individual parts of postures used to be heavily emphasized (these are akin to single basic techniques) along with stepping and body shifting exercises.
Push-hands was always used only as a sensitivity exercise. Nowadays, a lot of people tend to think that it actually prepares you for fighting but nothing could be further from the truth. People have misunderstood the nature and meaning of "adhere" or "sticking" energy and this has led to this misconception, I think.
Chigong training begins as a gentle method but eventually becomes quite strenuous - even painful at times and it is practiced in stages over a long period of time. This includes fajin;the ability to emit energy through various parts of the body.
Old-fashioned Taiji training actually involved the use of some weight-training devices (not as we think of them in body-building training in the Occident) and exercises, heavy bag exercises, and other such things.
I train my students in this same manner (although they also learn Bagua and Xingyi) and they develop very high-level fighting skills.
But.
The practice of individual parts of postures used to be heavily emphasized (these are akin to single basic techniques) along with stepping and body shifting exercises.
Push-hands was always used only as a sensitivity exercise. Nowadays, a lot of people tend to think that it actually prepares you for fighting but nothing could be further from the truth. People have misunderstood the nature and meaning of "adhere" or "sticking" energy and this has led to this misconception, I think.
Chigong training begins as a gentle method but eventually becomes quite strenuous - even painful at times and it is practiced in stages over a long period of time. This includes fajin;the ability to emit energy through various parts of the body.
Old-fashioned Taiji training actually involved the use of some weight-training devices (not as we think of them in body-building training in the Occident) and exercises, heavy bag exercises, and other such things.
I train my students in this same manner (although they also learn Bagua and Xingyi) and they develop very high-level fighting skills.
T
TkdWarrior
Guest
excercises like very low postures n very very slow moving, excercises with heavy ball etc etc... i think u'll classify as killing enuff... then some reaaallllll fightings
i do like two man fighting sets but seriously i dont' want to be bind with them(as yilisifu already said)...
there's lot of info on peter lam's site(n i forgot the link, anyone?)
-TkdWarrior-
i do like two man fighting sets but seriously i dont' want to be bind with them(as yilisifu already said)...
there's lot of info on peter lam's site(n i forgot the link, anyone?)
-TkdWarrior-
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
It is arrant nonsense to say that "real" taiji in China is rare! If you go to China as a tourist, you will see tourist Taiji. If you go to train you will see "real" taiji. Incidentally peple who think that taji is ONLY about fighting have a serious gap in their knowledge and training schedule and would perhaps be inclined to think that "real" taiji was rare. I would however agree with Taijifan that "made up" forms have no place in the IMA's.
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
I thought the opposite is true. Most people don't think much about the fighting capability of taiji practitioners.
Just curious, how many taiji practitioners can really fight? How many of the so called masters are just hiding behind some myth?
Y
yilisifu
Guest
Having been to China - to train - I KNOW that real Taiji is rare. This is true of many others who have gone there to train. The forms are authentic enough, but true fighting skill is almost non-existant.
No, Taiji isn't just about fighting. No real martial art is. But if one cannot apply it in that way, one is being seriously short-changed and learning only half an art.
No, Taiji isn't just about fighting. No real martial art is. But if one cannot apply it in that way, one is being seriously short-changed and learning only half an art.
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
Are you just referring to Taiji in China?
I would venture to say that 9999 out of 10000 Taiji practitioners cannot fight to save his life. I am aware of the story about Kyokushin founder Mas Oyama was defeated at the hands of a Taiji elder and became his student. That is more like the exception than the norm.
C
chufeng
Guest
Nonsense???
China has 1.2 billion+ people...
If there is a concentration of TaiJi in a couple of villages, that still qualifies as RARE...You see "common" would mean that in any city or village one could find a TaiJi instructor who still had "The Heart of TaiJi" to pass on...that is not the case, however...
YiLiSifu did not go to China as a tourist...
He was invited to go as a representative of Chinese martial arts as practiced in the United States...he met several of the REAL martial artists while he was over there...THEY told him about how RARE real fighting skill was in China...the focus had been turned toward health maintenance and showy demonstration type stuff.
I agree with J.Napalm...very few people who practice TaiJi can fight with it...those that can are the exception, not the rule.
Perhaps you, EastWinds, have a deeper understanding of your art than most...that still does not make it common...you are, however, uncommon.
:asian:
chufeng
China has 1.2 billion+ people...
If there is a concentration of TaiJi in a couple of villages, that still qualifies as RARE...You see "common" would mean that in any city or village one could find a TaiJi instructor who still had "The Heart of TaiJi" to pass on...that is not the case, however...
YiLiSifu did not go to China as a tourist...
He was invited to go as a representative of Chinese martial arts as practiced in the United States...he met several of the REAL martial artists while he was over there...THEY told him about how RARE real fighting skill was in China...the focus had been turned toward health maintenance and showy demonstration type stuff.
I agree with J.Napalm...very few people who practice TaiJi can fight with it...those that can are the exception, not the rule.
Perhaps you, EastWinds, have a deeper understanding of your art than most...that still does not make it common...you are, however, uncommon.
:asian:
chufeng
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Chufeng,
You mis-represent what I said. I did not say that fighting Taiji was common. I merely stated that it was not rare. There is a significant difference. And yes of course you are right. The focus has been turned towards health maintenance. And again yes, in a population of 1.2 billion (your figures), I would be extremely surprised if the majority could use Taiji as a fighting art! You need to forget the Beijing's and the Shanghai's if you want to find "real" taiji. But of course REAL fighters will never advertise themselves, or boast of having humiliated a teacher in front of his students by demonstrating a technique. But by their very demeanour, manner and method of teaching, you KNOW they can fight. They don't need to demonstrate it!
And Yilisifu you are also correct. If you cannot use Taiji to fight you have only learned half the art. And of course, conversely, if you use Taji ONLY to fight, you have also only learned half the art. Too many people forget that Taiji also has a Yin element.
Someone asked on another thread what was the difference between external and internal arts. I think on this thread we are slowly finding out!
Very best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Ta Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"
You mis-represent what I said. I did not say that fighting Taiji was common. I merely stated that it was not rare. There is a significant difference. And yes of course you are right. The focus has been turned towards health maintenance. And again yes, in a population of 1.2 billion (your figures), I would be extremely surprised if the majority could use Taiji as a fighting art! You need to forget the Beijing's and the Shanghai's if you want to find "real" taiji. But of course REAL fighters will never advertise themselves, or boast of having humiliated a teacher in front of his students by demonstrating a technique. But by their very demeanour, manner and method of teaching, you KNOW they can fight. They don't need to demonstrate it!
And Yilisifu you are also correct. If you cannot use Taiji to fight you have only learned half the art. And of course, conversely, if you use Taji ONLY to fight, you have also only learned half the art. Too many people forget that Taiji also has a Yin element.
Someone asked on another thread what was the difference between external and internal arts. I think on this thread we are slowly finding out!
Very best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Ta Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"
C
chufeng
Guest
Eastwinds, we've had discussions in the past regarding TaiJi and the internal arts...I think we both agree on most points...I certainly agree that there is more to TaiJi than fighting...much more...but to ignore that part is wrong, as well...'nuff said...
I guess our dispute (if you can call it that) stems from the definition of rare.
I think it rare that people study TaiJi...
...and I think it is even more rare to find people who study TaiJi who really know what they are doing.
OK, maybe "common" is not what you said...but, please define rare for me...
1:100,000?
:asian:
chufeng
I guess our dispute (if you can call it that) stems from the definition of rare.
I think it rare that people study TaiJi...
...and I think it is even more rare to find people who study TaiJi who really know what they are doing.
OK, maybe "common" is not what you said...but, please define rare for me...
1:100,000?
:asian:
chufeng
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Maybe my understanding of the history of Taiji is incorrect, but wasn't the origin of Chen Taiji a combination of local village skills mixed with the skills passed on by a soldier?
It was my understanding that the entire "not for fighting" aspect of Taiji was a much later development (likely due to the added qigong practice and development).
It would seem to me (as a soldier) that it would be odd for a military force to teach meditational and philosophical skills for the well-being of their troops... The primary focus for soldiers is fighting - powerfully, and right now. Little time is available for allowing the soldiers to develop their "yin side."
Just curious. I know what Taiji is today, I am addressing what it was at the moment of its conception...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
It was my understanding that the entire "not for fighting" aspect of Taiji was a much later development (likely due to the added qigong practice and development).
It would seem to me (as a soldier) that it would be odd for a military force to teach meditational and philosophical skills for the well-being of their troops... The primary focus for soldiers is fighting - powerfully, and right now. Little time is available for allowing the soldiers to develop their "yin side."
Just curious. I know what Taiji is today, I am addressing what it was at the moment of its conception...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
This is hardly sufficient to judge. I believe the expression, "looks good on paper and sounds good in theory" comes to mind. :asian:
I would venture to say that failure to realistically test the effectiveness of their techniques and skills, is an open invitation to "rude awakening". Hopefully they never have to use their skills.
Y
yilisifu
Guest
Exactly. I have met numerous martial artists who have (or had) sterling reputations as fighters because of their appearance, demeanor, and talk. They could certainly talk the talk.
I also witnessed them get the stuffing pounded out of them (often by those very people they insulted). Clearly, they couldn't walk the walk.
I also witnessed them get the stuffing pounded out of them (often by those very people they insulted). Clearly, they couldn't walk the walk.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
"Walk the Walk, Talk the Talk, Getting the stuffing pounded out of them". Are we REALLY talking about an internal art here? If we are, then I'm afraid our definitions must be remarkably different as must have been our teachings. It would appear that the essence has been lost or at least become obscured, much like present day Judo.
And Yiliquan1, Sorry, I don't know the REAL history of Taiji, nor do I suspect does anyone else.
"Whosoever knows how to lead well is not warlike : Whosoever knows how to fight well is not angry : Whosoever knows how to conquer enemies does not fight them : Whosoever knows how to use men well, keeps himself below"
These are the tennets of a real internal art. These are the tennets taught by my Master. If you ignore them, you cannot claim to be practising an internal art!
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, "Yes keep doing it"
And Yiliquan1, Sorry, I don't know the REAL history of Taiji, nor do I suspect does anyone else.
"Whosoever knows how to lead well is not warlike : Whosoever knows how to fight well is not angry : Whosoever knows how to conquer enemies does not fight them : Whosoever knows how to use men well, keeps himself below"
These are the tennets of a real internal art. These are the tennets taught by my Master. If you ignore them, you cannot claim to be practising an internal art!
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, "Yes keep doing it"
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Since you are in the UK you may wish to have a look at a TV program produced by the BBC back in the mid 1980’s called “Way of the Warrior”.
Look for the one that had a man in it called Hung Yi Shang (Tai Chi was the theme of the show)Â…Â….I think it will answer your question and be an eye opener for you at the same time.
I had the good fortune to meet Hung Yi Shang when I lived in Taiwan.
C
chufeng
Guest
If the martial applications won't work in an unrehearsed, full tilt boogie, attack...then you aren't learning the martial applications. The only way to test that is to train, full tilt boogie, from time to time.
Certainly the philosophical, the intrinsic, the esoteric are important...probably MORE important...but, to say you are learning a martial art and then never test whether it works is burying your head in the sand...
If you do train hard and fast from time to time, good for you...but your posts seem to indicate that WE somehow don't "get it" because we like to mix it up...
:asian:
chufeng
Certainly the philosophical, the intrinsic, the esoteric are important...probably MORE important...but, to say you are learning a martial art and then never test whether it works is burying your head in the sand...
If you do train hard and fast from time to time, good for you...but your posts seem to indicate that WE somehow don't "get it" because we like to mix it up...
:asian:
chufeng
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Chufeng,
Could not agree more!! You've put it in a nut shell. Yes I do train "full tilt" FROM TIME TO TIME. Yes I do practise applications full speed. It just seemed from the posts here, that that type of training was the be all and end all of training! That the fighting aspect was ALL important! Just trying to put the balanced point of view that fighting is the last resort in a conflict situation. But if you need to, you can!
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Keep doing it"
Could not agree more!! You've put it in a nut shell. Yes I do train "full tilt" FROM TIME TO TIME. Yes I do practise applications full speed. It just seemed from the posts here, that that type of training was the be all and end all of training! That the fighting aspect was ALL important! Just trying to put the balanced point of view that fighting is the last resort in a conflict situation. But if you need to, you can!
Best wishes
"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Keep doing it"
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
You bet.
It would appear that the essence has been lost or obscured if a person genuinely believes that fighting arts, regardless of their esoteric nature, evolved to what they are without having to prove themselves time and time again... If I recall correctly, most, if not all, of the luminaries of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua had to do quite a bit of "put up or shut up" over the years. Many Xingyi and Bagua practitioners were guards of one sort or another. Why? Because they believed fighting was not the "way" of their art? Hardly.
Then I guess by your definition and logic if someone is not following the tenets set out by your teacher, they are not studying an internal art. Those sayings have merit, but sound a whole lot like someone echoing the Tao Te Ching - a semi-religious book. When did martial arts, internal or otherwise, require religious teaching to qualify their martial nature? Religion has surely accompanied many arts over the years, but remove the religion and the fighting art remains.
Internal and External are relative and mislabeling terms. They are artificial contrivances applied originally by people who didn't understand the terms today. The longer I practice my "internal" boxing, the more I realize how inappropriate both terms are, and how much "internal martial arts" has come to symbolize some new-age, fluffy, hand holding, crystal wearing, feather carrying, animal feces.
Martial arts are about fighting. To say they aren't is laughable. If they aren't, then why do we do so? The philosophical and spiritual development is a result of the fighting training. Warriors who have been exposed to combat and warfare tend to be far more peaceful than the young bucks who have yet to see it. Why? Experience. So as we train and fight and learn, we develop those philosophical and spiritual advances that we all feel are the true aim of martial study.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
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