getting to the heart of taiji

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
I've run into the exact same problem with both Japanese and Chinese. I'd have paid good money to watch you dump the Wado-ryu high muckey-muck on his duff....

He was small potatoes.
I wish I had a photo of the expression on his face when he got up though.
His face just showed a total loss for words…………but looked as if he might have been saying to himself "Oh God, I have really "F-ed" up this time".
I was actually nice to him and apologized for dumping him on his *** and asked if he was OK several times through out the day.

Originally posted by yilisifu
Sadly, many Americans have bought into this same idea; that only the Chinese or Japanese or Okinawans REALLY know a given martial art.....that's poppycock.

I have met some Japanese and Okinawan Karateka that are supposed to be “da bomb” by some westerners accounts but what I saw of them they were just really sloppy.
One man's garbage is another man's steak I guess.

Originally posted by yilisifu
I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but it's a fact. I've been there and seen it (as you have)......

I get flamed for the same thing. And it is always by the people that have never been there or done it but seem to think they know better for some odd reason.

 

[chufeng]

Quote by YiLiSifu:

When I was in China, I saw what you spoke about, Ryushikan. It was awful. Oddly enough, these same people are now stepping forward and saying, "By the way, you're doing that wrong."
"Please show me the correct way," you ask. "You must attend my seminar and pay xxx dollars first, and then I will show you" is the usual response, more or less.

I saw advertisement for a TaiJi seminar in the midwest...cost was $100 for one day and $150 for two...

About three months later, the very SAME Taiji instructor offered a seminar on fixing the mistakes taught in the first seminar...cost...$100 per day...

What a deal...pay out the nose for wrong information only to be offered an opportunity to fix it for the same price...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Taiji fan]

Can I just point some thing out here. The guy I intereveiwed did not say you have to be Chinese to understand Taijiquan, what he said was the lack of ability of wester taiji players had come from the fact they had not had access to high level teachers....the Taiwan argument is pretty lame as far as taijiquan goes the Chen family and the Yang family do not live in Taiwan.....he said that British taiji teachers lacked the knowledge because they were trying to work stuff out from crudely translated texts and lack of access to the top people, even the way taijiquan is judged in competition is done differently here. He hoped that with access to better training British taiji players would reach higher standards and that of those studying with the families in China.....it has nothing to do with genetics or racism....

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
Can I just point some thing out here. The guy I intereveiwed did not say you have to be Chinese to understand Taijiquan, what he said was the lack of ability of wester taiji players had come from the fact they had not had access to high level teachers

What he said may be true. Most westerners don’t have access to high-level instruction, but many do, and they don’t need to hoik all the way to China to get it.
However, if that’s his argument I could just as easily say the same about many Chinese MA people I have seen. And I have seen some real crap in my days in China……..so by his logic I could say they sucked because they didn’t have access to high-level teachers as well. There will always be skilled and not so skilled MA people teaching, what people should do is find what suits them.

Originally posted by Taiji fan
....the Taiwan argument is pretty lame as far as taijiquan goes the Chen family and the Yang family do not live in Taiwan

Actually no it is not lame, as I was not referring solely to TaiChi but Chinese Martial Arts in general.
As far as TaiChi goes…..does one really have to study from one the Chens or Yangs to get good instruction? Do they offer good instruction or do people just refer to them for “name value”?
The reason why I ask is because I have seen famous MA people that were touted as the end all beat all to their art/style but they “blew dog”.

Originally posted by Taiji fan
.....he said that British taiji teachers lacked the knowledge because they were trying to work stuff out from crudely translated texts and lack of access to the top people, even the way taijiquan is judged in competition is done differently here. He hoped that with access to better training British taiji players would reach higher standards and that of those studying with the families in China.....it has nothing to do with genetics or racism....

Tournaments are not always a litmus test to ones skill level or lack of. More often than not they are political hotbeds that don’t always measure the arts worthiness but are self serving vehicles for promoting an agenda.

 

[yilisifu]

For me, the real skill of a martial artists, be he/she a Chinese stylist or anything else, is how effectively they can apply their art under stressful and unrehearsed conditions. Many "Masters" demonstrate their skill by saying, "OK, let me show you...here, throw a punch..." That's a no brainer. He knows what the attack is and when it's coming. To demonstrate ANY style in that fashion is child's play.

And so I am led into another story. A senior student (of over two decades) of a very well-known Taiji teacher visited the school of one of my students one day. He practiced push-hands with them (which I dispute as a method by which to teach fighting skills; it is really only useful as a sensitivity exercise) and did quite well. My impression was that he was a bit impressed with himself.
One of my seniors then asked if he could actually fight with his Taiji and of course, the fellow said he could. So they squared off. They shifted round for a bit, then my student fired a driving reverse punch (out of Xingyi) at the guy (we DO practice that . Alot.) and had to slam on the brakes as the poor fellow hadn't even raised his hands to defend himself.
He simply had no idea what to do. They repeated this exercise a few more times and each time, the visitor was caught flat-footed and unable to defend himself even vaguely.

I understand what the Chinese fellow who was interviewed was saying but it's a very familiar arguement and I would ask, "What are we doing wrong?"

 

[Taiji fan]

What he said may be true. Most westerners don’t have access to high-level instruction, but many do, and they don’t need to hoik all the way to China to get it.

never said they did...this teacher along with Cheng Zheng Lei and Chen Xiao Wang make regular trips to the UK.

Actually no it is not lame, as I was not referring solely to TaiChi but Chinese Martial Arts in general.

it is lame as far as the taiji argument goes...this thread is about taiji

As far as TaiChi goes…..does one really have to study from one the Chens or Yangs to get good instruction?

if those are the styles you study then why got to the monkey when you can go to the organ grinder...I have seen far to many teachers call their style Yang and be as far away from the principles taught by the family as they can be, its not about a 'name' its about learning from the source. It about getting to the goodies without having to constantly sift through the crap.

Tournaments are not always a litmus test to ones skill level or lack of. More often than not they are political hotbeds that don’t always measure the arts worthiness but are self serving vehicles for promoting an agenda.

it has nothing to do with skill or level his comments were to indicate that we had also rearranged the manner in which sompettinos were judged to suit ourselves and if we are going to compete on a world stage ie the Olympics, there is much work to be done at even the organisational level.

I understand what the Chinese fellow who was interviewed was saying but it's a very familiar arguement and I would ask, "What are we doing wrong?"

what are we doing wrong? plenty as far as incorrect taiji is concerned. There is no dispute on wether people are good martial artists or not, the argument is not even at that level yet, it is simply that in the fact that people who have had minimal training, minium access to a teacher of a decent level have brought taiji to this country and it has continued to be of a fairly basic standard for the last 20 years. It has been embellished by those wishing to be good taiji fighters when they have not really understood the art (however well meaning they have been) it has been turning into something quite rediculous by the 'new agers'

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

it is lame as far as the taiji argument goes...this thread is about taiji

I see. Have you lived in Taiwan or China and compared the two?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

if those are the styles you study then why got to the monkey when you can go to the organ grinder...I have seen far to many teachers call their style Yang and be as far away from the principles taught by the family as they can be, its not about a 'name' its about learning from the source. It about getting to the goodies without having to constantly sift through the crap.

The reason why I asked is because in the Karate world, for example, many folks believe the best place to learn Funakoshi style Shotokan Karate is at the JKA. Although the JKA is very famous this couldn’t be further from the truth. A better lesser know place is from a Mr. Akamine in Okinawa.
I was just wondering if the “Big Houses” for TaiChi had similar situations.

 

[Taiji fan]

I see. Have you lived in Taiwan or China and compared the two?

uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan. I have no doubt there are many fine martial artists in Taiwan, that is not what I am arguing.

The reason why I asked is because in the Karate world, for example, many folks believe the best place to learn Funakoshi style Shotokan Karate is at the JKA. Although the JKA is very famous this couldn’t be further from the truth. A better lesser know place is from a Mr. Akamine in Okinawa.

I do not study karate so I do not have any idea of that. I do however study Yang family taijiquan have have found that much of what I have seen has lacked any of the depth that has come from the Yangs themself. Are there good non chinese teachers? Of course there are, because they have had high level tuition and held true to the principles that the founders have laid down, they haven't added their own 'interpretations'. which is largely what has watered down taijiquan in this country.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan.

Gettin' kinda snippy, aren't ya?
I was just curious. BTW, you didn't answer the question.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan.

Not sure if the point has been made in this thread or not, but it should be noted that just because you train with the "head" of a style, it does not necessarily mean you are getting the best instruction, nor receiving the most information...

I do however study Yang family taijiquan have have found that much of what I have seen has lacked any of the depth that has come from the Yangs themself. Are there good non chinese teachers? Of course there are, because they have had high level tuition and held true to the principles that the founders have laid down, they haven't added their own 'interpretations'. which is largely what has watered down taijiquan in this country.

I agree that most martial arts (not just CMA, either) in the US have little in common with their ancestral roots. I think it is rare for MA in the US today to be worth much at all... Sad to say, but unfortunately true...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
.. I think it is rare for MA in the US today to be worth much at all... Sad to say, but unfortunately true...

Which MA? All MA in the US?

 

[Taiji fan]

:erg:

Gettin' kinda snippy, aren't ya?

am I? well it wasn't intended. No haven't lived in neither Taiwan or China, as I said Taiwan has no relevence to where the Yangs and Chens live.

Not sure if the point has been made in this thread or not, but it should be noted that just because you train with the "head" of a style, it does not necessarily mean you are getting the best instruction, nor receiving the most information...

Yiliquan 1 I do agree with you too a point, but you have obviously never seen the dire state of taijiquan in the UK as it has been taught so far from what the families intended. There are smalll numbers of teachers who are really teachng good stuff and mostly they are the ones who have gone outside the UK and even Europe for instruction. Every community centre here offers a 'tai cheeeeee' class the standard here is pretty diabolical....well meaning buit low level....people train for years and are never even taught the correct basic stances.

 

[yilisifu]

I must admit that I don't what the state of Taiji in the UK...sounds like a bunch of new age crispies have been teaching there. In the uS, we have a goodly number of similar wannabees, but there are also some good teachers...

What is discouraging is that for the most part, the vast majority of Taiji practicioners (including teachers) cannot use their art in any practical sense (ie., for actual fighting). Many of them THINK they can, but they are sadly mistaken.

Perhaps it is this kind of thing to which the Chinese fellow was referring.

 

[Taiji fan]

Yilisifu said.

What is discouraging is that for the most part, the vast majority of Taiji practicioners (including teachers) cannot use their art in any practical sense (ie., for actual fighting). Many of them THINK they can, but they are sadly mistaken

and what this has also lead to is some pretty reasonable martial artists, making up stuff but selling it under the banner of taijiquan. Many of those who profess to be able to fight with taiji, are not using the taiji applications but simply bits and pieces from other arts, they can still fight but it is still not taiji fighting......

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, that's a fairly common thing in the US as well. OK - NOW I think I understand what you have been talking about.

I agree that much of the "real" Taiji has not been taught to people - but that also includes China. Real Taiji there is as rare as it is here. The outer form LOOKS authentic enough, but it's like a doughnut - nothing in the center.

The OLD training methods were quite rigorous; pretty much the opposite of what the new agers view as Taiji (or Bagua, for that matter). One Chinese friend of mine watched a Taiji demo by the student of a well-known teacher here and said it was "dead style of Taiji." No life. No spirit.

The problem is that many people nowadays get into Taiji because they've heard that it's so good for your health and it's so EASY and GENTLE to practice, with no STRAINING and it moves nice and SLOW...horsepoop. They wouldn't last fifteen minutes in a real, old-fashioned Taiji class where training is extremely strenuous, painful, causes muscles to ache and cramp and makes you sweat into your socks.......

 

[Taiji fan]

Yes, you have hit the nail right on the head.....infact I heard a story, can't remember who it was refering too but it concerned two brothers, their taiji training was so hard that one ran away and the other tried to commit suicide.....

 

[chufeng]

Moving slowly is much harder than moving fast...
...and the slower you can move (correctly) the faster you actually become...Doing TaiJi correctly is like perpetual MaBu training...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[TkdWarrior]

taiji fan the story comes from the Yang Family itself...
it's about Yang Banhou/PanHou n yang shou hou
one tried to commit suicide n other tried to run away n become monk but Lu chan found him n make him come back...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Taiji fan]

TKDWarrior....thank you fopr making me feel thouroughly embarrased........Like I know my arts history...ooops