General Choi telling a North Korean NOT to twist his body when punching. "Just go up"

[Badhabits]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing the correlation between Dempsey's drop step and sine wave. He never talks (in his book) about any type of rise before the drop step. The only prerequisite he mentions would be having at least a little weight on the front foot. He does say that one of the great things about the drop step is that it has no tell before it happens. Wouldn't a rise prior to doing it be a tell (unless you're already rising for another reason)? He goes into detail in his book, says the front foot is lifted, body pushes off rear foot as it begins to fall, no sort of loading it up other than some forward weight.
I've had some training on the drop step, there was never a rise worked into it. Maybe other people do it differently.

 

[windwalker099]

He does say that one of the great things about the drop step is that it has no tell before it happens. Wouldn't a rise prior to doing it be a tell (unless you're already rising for another reason)?

You're correct, Dempsey didn’t show an obvious rise before the drop step, in order to avoid telegraphing.

Nor did he describe his method as a sine wave.
Functionally, the motion still follows a wave-like pattern:
the body drops, the fist rises, and energy flows through the frame.

It’s not about a visible lift, it’s about smooth internal transfer, much like a sine wave:
the body loads and releases without interruption.

For those interested his book Championship fighting
outlines the drop step.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Nor did he describe his method as a sine wave.

I think General Choi may be unique in the use of the term which he found convenient to contrast with "Saw tooth" and "Flat" wave. While the term was unique - the idea is not as can be seen from above posts.

 

[Badhabits]

"Falling power" I think is pretty much used across all arts I've had training in. It's the terminology and descriptions that differ. Falling power. Sinking power. Borrowing energy from the earth. They all cross over. In the West, Eastern terminology tends to sound all woo woo to us. Tell some guys doing a drop step they're "borrowing energy from the earth" they'll look at you like you have three heads. Fun stuff.

 

[_Simon_]

General Choi told me that he prefers karate.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

"Falling power" I think is pretty much used across all arts I've had training in. It's the terminology and descriptions that differ. Falling power. Sinking power. Borrowing energy from the earth. They all cross over. In the West, Eastern terminology tends to sound all woo woo to us. Tell some guys doing a drop step they're "borrowing energy from the earth" they'll look at you like you have three heads. Fun stuff.

I think this is what a lot of it comes down to. They've been doing the same things as us for decades (centuries)? They just describe it in a context of their culture that sounds like mystical mumbo jumbo in the west.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"Falling power" I think is pretty much used across all arts I've had training in. It's the terminology and descriptions that differ. Falling power. Sinking power. Borrowing energy from the earth. They all cross over. In the West, Eastern terminology tends to sound all woo woo to us. Tell some guys doing a drop step they're "borrowing energy from the earth" they'll look at you like you have three heads. Fun stuff.

Just like apples, bricks and airplanes obey the same laws of gravity, the various styles of MA all follow the same laws of biomechanics. The only difference is how we term and conceptualize them, which in turn influence how we express them in physical execution. And to what degree a style relies on a particular law as part of its doctrine. These of are some of the major elements that makes a style or system different than others.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Falling power. Sinking power. Borrowing energy from the earth. They all cross over.

I just taught a 7 years old kid to coordinate his punch with his front foot landing. If your hand can coordinate with your foot, you can then worry about coordinating your elbow with your knee, and ... So, falling power is power generation 101.

When you punch, during the

- beginner level training, your back foot should contact to the ground (static punch).
- advance level training, your back foot should slide along the ground (dynamic punch).

Falling power is not beginner level training at all.

 

[marvin8]

Don't know how you define "Drive Power" but this is how I see Sine wave. It is the flexion of the knee or knees which facilitates employing the whole body to drive power. Some boxing boos refer to the use of the legs to generate punching power. There is also the idea of kinetic linking. It is this flexing that results in a smooth rising and lowering f the body that he metaphorically called "Sine wave"

The drive power from Choi’s reverse punch sine wave (down -> up -> down) comes from the lead leg flexing, rear heel dropping and the lead hand hikite. This is not considered using the kinetic chain. Because, the legs are not used to push off the ground. A spring gets its power from both compress and release. The kinetic chain is used to describe the boxing cross or baseball pitch where you push off the ground with your leg(s) and use your whole body to generate power in one continuous chain.

Example of rear cross pull counter using sine wave (up -> down -> up) and kinetic chain.

1. Up – From ready stance, shift weight to front foot to draw opponent’s counter.
2. Down – Transfer (pull) weight to back foot to evade opponent’s attack and extend them.
3. Up – Shift weight to the front foot and throw the rear cross.

https://imgur.com/kf5LHb4

https://imgur.com/fLJd1Ao

 

[Badhabits]

I just taught a 7 years old kid to coordinate his punch with his front foot landing. If your hand can coordinate with your foot, you can then worry about coordinating your elbow with your knee, and ... So, falling power is power generation 101.

When you punch, during the

- beginner level training, your back foot should contact to the ground (static punch).
- advance level training, your back foot should slide along the ground (dynamic punch).

Falling power is not beginner level training at all.

What you're describing is usually taught at (varying) higher levels in karate. Beginners learn to plant front foot, then punch- two separate movements. At some point later timing is adjusted so that the front foot and fist land at the same time. After that it's adjusted so the fist lands just a hair before the foot. Coordinating the rear foot sliding up may come even later. Like a lot of things, people who quit training after a short time end up thinking the beginners timing is it. I have an acquaintance who tried karate, got mad when the teacher wouldn't let him move his rear foot up from day one and ...quit karate altogether with a low opinion of it!

 

[Earl Weiss]

The drive power from Choi’s reverse punch sine wave (down -> up -> down) comes from the lead leg flexing, rear heel dropping and the lead hand hikite. This is not considered using the kinetic chain. Because, the legs are not used to push off the ground. A spring gets its power from both compress and release. The kinetic chain is used to describe the boxing cross or baseball pitch where you push off the ground with your leg(s) and use your whole body to generate power in one continuous chain.

FWIW I do not agree that the video of GM Kang where he almost straightens the lead leg is an optimal example of SW for rear hand punching when already in the Walking stance.
The concept of flexing the knee or knees to facilitate punching power is not unique to Tk-D.
As far as the kinetic chain goes in the example of already being in a walking stance and then doing the rear hand punch it is as you describe, since the rear leg starts straight the knee flexes and rear heel raises. The front knee is already bent and flexes slightly more as the rear knee flexes (Slight Down) . The rear hand punch is launched while the rea leg straightens (Up) and impacts as the rear heel sets down when the rear leg straightens and the led leg returns to the original less flexed position. (down) This straightening of the rear leg with heel setting down and decrease in the bend of the led leg is the "Push off the Ground " you refer to and the chain is now intact from the punching fist to the rear foot. Granted - exaggerated and stylized for patterns.

 

[marvin8]

The front knee is already bent and flexes slightly more as the rear knee flexes (Slight Down) . The rear hand punch is launched while the rea leg straightens (Up) and impacts as the rear heel sets down when the rear leg straightens and the led leg returns to the original less flexed position. (down) This straightening of the rear leg with heel setting down and decrease in the bend of the led leg is the "Push off the Ground " you refer to and the chain is now intact from the punching fist to the rear foot. Granted - exaggerated and stylized for patterns.

With shoulders square, Choi goes from heels raised (up) to moving backwards and planting his heels to the ground (down). He does not raise his heel to “push off the ground.” The rear cross uses down/up, the whole body, rotation and continuous forward momentum (kinetic chain power). Choi does the opposite.

From walking stance (50/50 weight is in the middle), Choi…

1. Down - bends his knees.
2. Up - straightens his knees and shifts his weight forward over the lead foot.
3. Down/Back – flexes his front knee moving him down and back then lands his heel to the ground and reverse punch.

https://imgur.com/kPqD8pd

Apparently, the pull counter rear cross makes better use of the sine wave. Choi’s sine wave is less powerful and defensively responsible. Choi stays on the front foot longer, does not move his head and moves straight back.