Gene Lebell did NOT teach or fought with Bruce, here is the proof

[Buka]

Yeah I don't remember.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tracking details during trauma is part of my job. It doesn’t matter that your aorta is spraying blood in our face, I cannot lose track of sponges or instruments in real time regardless of the circumstances. Your factual memory absolutely must be accurate. If I fail to have an accurate memory and my count is incorrect it could cost the patient their life. Working on people with multiple gunshot wounds at 230AM would, by your description , create a “flashbulb memory”. I would say that perhaps your position that these memories are generally inaccurate is not entirely accurate either. In any case, let the record show that I have never had an inaccurate count during or after a surgery.

We're not talking about the ability to remember it in the next hour (though we have ample evidence our memory isn't nearly as good as we think, even immediately after an incident). And the parts you're focusing on there (where you placed things, etc.) are a different kind of memory than visual perception or the event, itself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good question. Off the top of my head I can't think of a study where anyone's tested this, but I am sure someone has. I'll have to look into that

If you find something, let us know. I did a few quick searches, and didn't find anything, though part of the issue is finding a good search that doesn't bring in questions like "what is the difference between perception and memory". I remember some of what the prevailing understanding was when I was studying Psychology in school, but those are surely outdated at this point.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah I don't remember.

Wait, who are you again?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We're not talking about the ability to remember it in the next hour (though we have ample evidence our memory isn't nearly as good as we think, even immediately after an incident). And the parts you're focusing on there (where you placed things, etc.) are a different kind of memory than visual perception or the event, itself.

It’s all wrapped up together. There is a lot going on in trauma surgery. It may not be where I placed it, I’m responsible for what the surgeon or the RNFA does as well, not just what I’m doing. That’s just one example. I don’t think this is consistently true across a varied population. It may be generally true, but there are certainly exceptions. I confess I don’t know much about this, but it’s important to remember that there are people who can remember very long strings of words or numbers after only seeing them once. Similarly, there are people who can play Mozart after hearing it once. This may be a different type of memory, which is partly my point. How many types of memory are there? What part do mnemonics play? What may be a trauma to one person may be a commonplace event to others. We may be capable of learning to remember in certain ways or circumstances. We may also internalize or process memories differently for a variety of reasons, stressors could potentially be a factor. This is an interesting discussion in any case.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How many types of memory are there?

Not a comprehensive list:

• Procedural memory (remembering how to do something)
• Episodic memory (remembering something you experienced and details about it)
• Semantic memory (general facts and information, not necessarily linked to a specific experience)
• Prospective memory (remembering to perform a planned action at a certain time - my dad was one of the world's leading researchers in this field)
• Recognition memory (just what it sounds like)
• Emotional memory (the unconscious emotional associations formed via our experiences)
• etc

Of course, there are different ways to divvy up the subject into different categories. You can look at sensory vs short term vs long term memories. You can look at different subcategories: for example, muscle memory (which despite its name is a feature of the nervous system not the muscles) is a sub-category of procedural memory which is a subcategory of nondeclarative memory.

As others have noted, eyewitness memory is notoriously unreliable. Back when I was reading up on the subject, Elizabeth Loftus was a big name in the field. But it's been a while and I'm sure there are newer people doing research.

What I haven't seen much research about is the effectiveness of training observers to be more accurate eyewitnesses, as in Buka's account. There's a lot of different questions that could be examined regarding that topic, but I don't know whether anyone has really gone deep into that rabbit hole.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not a comprehensive list:

• Procedural memory (remembering how to do something)
• Episodic memory (remembering something you experienced and details about it)
• Semantic memory (general facts and information, not necessarily linked to a specific experience)
• Prospective memory (remembering to perform a planned action at a certain time - my dad was one of the world's leading researchers in this field)
• Recognition memory (just what it sounds like)
• Emotional memory (the unconscious emotional associations formed via our experiences)
• etc

Of course, there are different ways to divvy up the subject into different categories. You can look at sensory vs short term vs long term memories. You can look at different subcategories: for example, muscle memory (which despite its name is a feature of the nervous system not the muscles) is a sub-category of procedural memory which is a subcategory of nondeclarative memory.

As others have noted, eyewitness memory is notoriously unreliable. Back when I was reading up on the subject, Elizabeth Loftus was a big name in the field. But it's been a while and I'm sure there are newer people doing research.

What I haven't seen much research about is the effectiveness of training observers to be more accurate eyewitnesses, as in Buka's account. There's a lot of different questions that could be examined regarding that topic, but I don't know whether anyone has really gone deep into that rabbit hole.

Thank you! That is very interesting and illuminating. Is this part of the field of Neurological Research?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thank you! That is very interesting and illuminating. Is this part of the field of Neurological Research?

There are multiple fields which look at memory. Some look at the neurologic underpinnings while others just look at the functioning of memory from an outside observer's perspective. Cognitive psychology in one of the big fields in the area. My dad's Ph.D. was in neurophysics, but he didn't get into examining prospective memory until he was working in the field of Human Factors at NASA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Speaking of my dad, I was looking to see if I could find any of his relevant research not hidden behind a paywall. Haven't found anything yet, but I did find this presentation he gave for the Department of Transportation. He doesn't explicitly mention prospective memory, but he does mention working memory and the stuff he explains concerning task switching is very much intertwined with prospective memory.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Speaking of my dad, I was looking to see if I could find any of his relevant research not hidden behind a paywall. Haven't found anything yet

Found one: https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/flightcognition/Publications/Dismukes&Nowinski_06.pdf

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Speaking of my dad, I was looking to see if I could find any of his relevant research not hidden behind a paywall. Haven't found anything yet, but I did find this presentation he gave for the Department of Transportation. He doesn't explicitly mention prospective memory, but he does mention working memory and the stuff he explains concerning task switching is very much intertwined with prospective memory.

Fascinating stuff in my opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s all wrapped up together. There is a lot going on in trauma surgery. It may not be where I placed it, I’m responsible for what the surgeon or the RNFA does as well, not just what I’m doing. That’s just one example. I don’t think this is consistently true across a varied population. It may be generally true, but there are certainly exceptions. I confess I don’t know much about this, but it’s important to remember that there are people who can remember very long strings of words or numbers after only seeing them once. Similarly, there are people who can play Mozart after hearing it once. This may be a different type of memory, which is partly my point. How many types of memory are there? What part do mnemonics play? What may be a trauma to one person may be a commonplace event to others. We may be capable of learning to remember in certain ways or circumstances. We may also internalize or process memories differently for a variety of reasons, stressors could potentially be a factor. This is an interesting discussion in any case.

Memory isn’t a single process, so we can’t derive much from one kind of memory about another, in some cases. There are people who have no ability to form memories, and have lost past memories (can’t even remember where they live), but they remember how to do things, because those are two different memory processes. Your ability to keep track of those items, and what actions were taken, isn’t the same as episodic memory (I believe that’s still the correct term for what this discussion started with), nor is the ability to remember numbers, etc. (I still remember phone numbers I haven’t used in 40 years). Memory is weird.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Memory isn’t a single process, so we can’t derive much from one kind of memory about another, in some cases. There are people who have no ability to form memories, and have lost past memories (can’t even remember where they live), but they remember how to do things, because those are two different memory processes. Your ability to keep track of those items, and what actions were taken, isn’t the same as episodic memory (I believe that’s still the correct term for what this discussion started with), nor is the ability to remember numbers, etc. (I still remember phone numbers I haven’t used in 40 years). Memory is weird.

I agree, it’s not something I know much about, although I’m certainly interested. I’ve got some reading to do, as well as some introspection to be completely honest.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Memory is weird.

Yeah. I can remember a kata I learned 50 years ago, but not most of what my wife tells me to do.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah. I can remember a kata I learned 50 years ago, but not most of what my wife tells me to do.

That’s listening skill, not memory, I have the same problem.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Only because this thread is still going on, I tracked down an old clip (not sure if anyone shared this).

Why any Bruce Lee fan would go on rants about Gene Lebell is beyond me, when by Gene's own admissions, Bruce was "world class" and he clearly states they had a mutually beneficial training relationship.

In this very clip he states Bruce spent time at Gene's school, and Gene spent time at Bruce's and it was nothing but respectful, which makes me wonder how good any of these fly by night trolls are at either judo or kung fu. If you're serious enough, you should be doing both imho