Gather and Release

[Same Trick]

I really hate the term "internal". In another thread, someone said, "If you train internal 10 days and then train external 1 day, you are no longer internal. It's like a vegetarian who eats vegetable for 10 days and on the 11th day, he eats meat. That person can no longer claim that he is a vegetarian."

"Internal" guys think they are pure blood, and external guys are all mudblood.

It’s even more complex, there are several MA’s labeled “internal”, and some theorize that even they interfere with each other if practiced together. It’s about in each of them they have their own specifics in “shenfa”(body) building, so in this sense doing both TJQ and XYQ, one is in a way doing neither, and then so doing external and internal would be an even more non achievement path.

I can to some degree understand the - practice two different internal MA’s - would not be optional for either of them, since the mind work in each are “slightly “ different .

 

[JowGaWolf]

For me, the use of the term "internal" is rather new.
In the 70s, we used the word "Qi" to describe why something happened.

Qi has always meant energy for me. It is both internal and external. The concept of internal and external is more about the flow of energy and not about the energy itself.

This is the only way I could make sense of that aspect of martial arts without running into contradictions. The flow of energy. Internal from within the body -> External when leaving the body -> Internal when receiving the body - External when leaving the body. All can be seen here.

or is a simple version here this. If we ask if this energy is enternal or external then what would we say? If it's only internal or external then we will quickly run into some issues.

 

[marvin8]

My metric is based on what one can do, not on what one can write about.
All Chinese martial arts are internal.
The distinction that I and others in my circles use is one that delineates the expressions of it.

Some of my experience,

Many yrs ago I had visited Master Lin, A (Nian) Long and his group with some of my taiji students from the US some of them borne in Taiwan acting as translators. He graciously demonstrated his 凌空勁 Volley jin, practice on his students while explaining different points of the demo….

when I speak of "internal" it's from this perspective

It's common for fighters to control their opponent from a distance without touch. These are soft skills using no force.

Per NTUMA, an example of ling kong jin is Michael Jordan controlling his opponent without touch...

NTUMA Martial Arts
Mar 2, 2021

Do you really have volley power??
(Click CC and set to English captions.)

Taichi Laboratory, Taichi In Science
Dec 15, 2022

Why we only see tai chi today without fighting ability? The following video is about the famous champion “Mike Tyson…” Don’t be misled by kung fu movies…

OK!!! What is relationship between counter punch and tai chi? Why I use so much time to explain it? The essence of tai chi is counter punch. Someone familiar with counter punch will not attack at any moment! Only attack when his enemy starts to attack.

Let’s see the following video. This is a move of tai chi. It's called Bang lang chue. You can see the person with black shorts [Lyoto Machida]. He does an empty skill (let his enemy lose control of this body) then fight back. This video is a very good expression of Yin Jin Ro Kong (empty skill). Through the video from beginning, you can see the value for Empty skill. Why tai chi teach people so hardly to practice empty skill? The above video shows you the answer. We empty the enemy (let him lose his balance control) with contact.

To create a good chance to do the counter punch at that moment, Tyson uses another way to empty his enemy "without" contact. Keep the distance. Use fast reaction ability of body to dodge enemy's attack. If dodging is success, it can create empty state of his enemy and attack at this moment. The way of tai chi to empty is contactness. We touch enemy's body and empty him. It needs unity and soft body.

Why Tyson chooses to use empty without contact? Because, empty with contact is more difficult. Once you have contact with your enemy, his power will affect your control to your body, you will use power passively. We will try to move our enemy with power by instinct. Try to move his body, let him loose control of his body ( fight fire with fire). But the result is opposite, we lose our control to body. This is what I mentioned before, the problem of "force bridge."

What makes counter punch so powerful is we let our enemy lose body control and have full control of our body at the same time. By this way, you can get the result "KO with one punch." Once you use power when contact happens, there is no tai chi at all.

Back to the original question, why tai chi can't be used to fight? The answer is easy. You don't have strong body to use tai chi. It's a kind of high difficulty skill to use. It depends on real fighting experience. The timing to use. Familiar to the move. The expectation is very high. To get the benefit of tai chi, the conclusion is there is no good or bad about the skill. A punch without any skill still can kill sb. There is no reason that tai chi doesn't work in fighting. The point is to understand the advantage and disadvantage of tai chi to get higher tai chi skill…

 

[windwalker099]

If we ask if this energy is enternal or external then what would we say? If it's only internal or external then we will quickly run into some issues.

We could say that "A Wave Transports Energy and Not Matter." This concept is demonstrated in "Newton's Cradle," where the transfer of energy occurs through the collision of the spheres.

In the human body, a similar phenomenon can occur externally through collision, such as when striking or being struck, or internally through other mechanisms, such as the transmission of forces along the fascial network.

There are ongoing studies attempting to update the understanding of what Qi might mean and how it could function. These studies explore how the body can act as a unit in expressing an internal wave, integrating principles from biomechanics, fascia research, and traditional Chinese medicine.


Some of the things being explored

The concept of Qi spreading throughout the body and using Qi to move the body may be due to the coordinated operation of the fascial network covering the whole body.

The ancients called this "Qi," which was not a myth, but they could not specify the exact mechanisms.

Modern science, with the help of anatomy and imaging technology, is gradually able to explain the more mysterious statements of the ancients, preventing today's people from mistakenly falling into the prison of thought and becoming obsessed with heresies.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We could say that "A Wave Transports Energy and Not Matter." This concept is demonstrated in "Newton's Cradle," where the transfer of energy occurs through the collision of the spheres.

In the human body, a similar phenomenon can occur externally through collision, such as when striking or being struck, or internally through other mechanisms, such as the transmission of forces along the fascial network.

There are ongoing studies attempting to update the understanding of what Qi might mean and how it could function. These studies explore how the body can act as a unit in expressing an internal wave, integrating principles from biomechanics, fascia research, and traditional Chinese medicine.


Some of the things being explored

I hope the scholars will have fun with it.

 

[windwalker099]

I hope the scholars will have fun with it.

As mentioned, there are studies trying to align historical concepts with modern scientific understanding. These studies are often presented as theories that aim to describe actions or principles, helping people understand what they can do or are training to do.

These theories are typically developed and explored by serious practitioners seeking a deeper understanding of what they can do, rather than by scholars, historians, or journalists.

Documenting what for many of them, they cannot do..

 

[JowGaWolf]

As mentioned, there are studies trying to align what has been said in the past to the modern science of today.

They’re called theories, trying to describe an action or principle. That helps people understand what they can do or are training to do .

Nothing to do with scholars, historians, or journalist.

If they are studying Qi and not experiencing Qi then they are scholars to me. Just like people who measure punching power and try to align what has been said in the past but could not deliver a punch using the same method. People like that are scholars. A sports trainer who has never run hurdles on the track, who tells me how to be better at what I do is a scholar. They do not gain their knowledge from doing or experience it through training. At the most they will be able to identify the elements and may know how to make improvement on the elements, but I'm still the one who has to have the skill for running hurdles. This is just reality as I see it and observe it.

 

[windwalker099]

If they are studying Qi and not experiencing Qi then they are scholars to me.

I take it you didn't read the article ?
Interesting resume

Brief biography of Mr. Wu Zongshi Guozhong (1932~2016)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I take it you didn't read the article ?

I read it.

This one right "On Tai Chi and Fascia Theory"

 

[JowGaWolf]

I take it you didn't read the article ?
Interesting resume

Brief biography of Mr. Wu Zongshi Guozhong (1932~2016)

I'll check this out after the post.

I read it.

This one right "On Tai Chi and Fascia Theory"

When I read stuff like this.
"Stuntmen jump from a height of two or three stories, flip a lap and start running again, their joints able to withstand the force of jumping from a height without shattering, mainly because internal pressure (from muscles) and external pressure (gravity and ground reaction) are transmitted and dispersed through the fascial network."

My first thought goes to "Are you sure? Have you tried it? Maybe something else going on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My first thought goes to "Are you sure? Have you tried it? Maybe something else going on.

Jump forward and not down. I understand this first hand as child who used to jump out of trees and off walls. The vertal drops were brutal. Because all of the energy from the drop goes straight down. There's no way to send it forward so the only option is to control the collapse of it. At 40lbs and 50lbs it's easy. My legs are stronger now but there's no way I'm going to try to collapse 200lbs in a vertical drop.

Welcome to my childhood home.
From age 7 -11, I would climb these areas and jump off. The trees that I used to jump off are gone but the vertial drops were like hanging off the tallest part of the house straight down. One vertical drops you have to control the collapse but you can't be loose. Being loose will just cause your face to smash into your knees. The most jumps that I did were from the wall add the corner of the house. The challenge was to see who could jump from the wall across the walkway better than the grass than the pavement. We were able to do more of these types of jumps because we then energy was forward and they didn't feel we were smashing into the ground. At that age we didn't understand the concept but through experience straight down wasn't the party train. Most of my friend were older so when we would play chase they would use the wall to get away. Me thinkng that it was cool learned to do it as well.


So when I read this
"Fascia avoids or at least minimizes the pressure concentrated on a single muscle, joint, or bone, and can use its viscoelastic properties to control the inertia generated by the force." I immediately think of my childhood and thing "I'm pretty sure that what minimized the pressure on a single muscle, joit, or bone was becasue The energy from my jump went outward and not downward. I've done both and there's a big difference in the landing. The other thing I remember is that the only part that fit "being loose" was when I was in the air. The landing wasn't loose it was when controlled desent was possible. That means my mucles had to slow the fall. This was without rolling foward, so when I landed, I would fall forward but similar to what these guys are doing where the hands would touch the ground.

So it doesn't matter who says it or how well they are know. When I read stuff like that, I think of my time as a kid. When you have a loose fall you will land like a sack of potatoes. I experienced that as well while hanging on a limb that broke that was a littler higher than the lowest part of that house. I landed on my back nice and loose and the impact was so bad, that I couldn't catch my breathe until about 20 or 30 minutes later while I was on the way to the hospital. That played out like this.
Me on the ground trying to breathe and telling my brother "Don't get mom." and then 2 minutes later "get mom" each effort to enhale was like my lungs didn't want fill up. So I sounded like someone who exhaled all of the air and then started talking.

So when when they are doing their studies, I hope they are asking those who are able to do it things like
"What does it feel like when you perform the action"
"Is what we are descibing sound like what is happening." My understand is that the article is about Fascia in Tai Chi but that may not apply to jumping from high places.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I take it you didn't read the article ?
Interesting resume

Brief biography of Mr. Wu Zongshi Guozhong (1932~2016)

I know people who can use energy to heal and do some other stuff that makes me seem like I'm the crazy one talking about it. If I could what they do, I would be happy with that. The people who do it have explanations on how they do it, but they don't tie it into science. It always goes into some spiritual connection. I know know if that's the human default for "I don't know" or if that's just the reality of it. I also know that that not everyone can do what they do. No matter how much I train or try. I just don't have the ability and that's cool too. People are built differently, it's normal.

 

[windwalker099]

My understand is that the article is about Fascia in Tai Chi but that may not apply to jumping from high places.

The article presented a theory, integrating, traditional Tai Chi principles with modern anatomical insights, suggesting that ancient concepts of Qi and Dantian can be understood through the lens of contemporary anatomical science, particularly through the fascial network that permeates the body.

excerpt from the article

"Teacher Wu Guozhong once quoted Master Zheng Manqing as saying:

The tangible (body) center of Tai Chi is in the spring, and the invisible (qi) center is in the Dantian.

If the connective tissue fiber network (fascial network) of the whole body is the passage for Qi, according to the research of "Anatomy Train", the center of the fiber network is also the mechanical center of gravity of the body.

It is located in the center of the lower abdomen, which is what is called in martial arts. (Dantian), this theory coincides with the Taoist Tai Chi advocated that the center of Xing Qi (invisible) is in the Dantian. The core of Tai Chi Qi Gong is in the Dantian. "

The people who do it have explanations on how they do it, but they don't tie it into science. It always goes into some spiritual connection.

Many famous masters use physics to explain what they do

Mr. Wang Peisheng

said: “Always keep your qi round, which is actually a kind of resultant force, and seek your own resultant force to be zero. The body is balanced in all directions, there is no collision, obstacle, or involvement, and it is flexible in all aspects.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many famous masters use physics to explain what they do

The people I was speaking of aren't martial arts masters. Yes that's what I know of from the martial artist of skill that I've met. The ones I've met were down to earth and to be honest. Took a lot of the excitement out of what they do. It was pretty much straight forward and bland

But my specific comment wasn't about martial artists. It's about two healers that I know.

But you are right about the martial artist who know what they are doing. More science than what people give them credit for.