Gather and Release

[windwalker099]

You go to the mountain top and train MA for 10 years alone.

Maybe not 10 years

the student snuck away one night, and left Oyama alone. With only monthly visits from a friend in the town of Tateyama in Chiba Prefecture, the loneliness and harsh training became grueling. Oyama remained on the mountain for fourteen months, and returned to Tokyo a much stronger and fiercer karateka.

 

[Same Trick]

This is possible as well. It happens.

You may be used to it so it could be normal for you. Or you could be in an area that is not affected by it. Or things may have changed since the MMA fighter beat up on Kung fu masters.

I wished I saved that article that had the Chinese government's response about what Chinese Martial Arts is supposed to be about. They basically said that it was for for health and not for fighting. Which is what I heard in the past. I also hear the same comment from. Older Chinese Americans who used to live in China. That Chinese martial arts are for health.

My issue with that statement is that techniques for groin kicks, sword, knife, joint locks, and arms breaks doesn't sound healthy.

I have also heard of stories from old Chinese teachers in the past about the suppression. But if you live in China and say that it's not happening then I can only take your word that's it doesn't happen in your area.

Martial arts for health was somwhat also the idea with the establishment of the central martial arts association in Nanjing and othe big cities around China in the 1930’s, a move to reach the bigger public to “strengthen the nation”, much the same as in Japan with the creation of Budo(gendai martial arts).

Something similar had happened in Europe with a new structured gymnastic movement which had some inspiration from fencing moves and training.

Interestingly this European gymnastic movement was so effective it became a basic for military physical education which the British army brought to Asia and eventually became the basis for the modern Yoga that everyone believe is pure Indian thing, could actually also be that this gymnastics sneaked into the new Chinese martial arts agenda at the big national martial arts associations.



So it seem that it happened same time almost on a global level that a new movement of Gumnastics inspired by martial arts or martial arts inspired by gymnastics or just martial arts transformer to a fit all as a public strengthening tool.



About the MMA vs CMA/Tjq guys the only thing suppressed was that specific “MMA” guy(forgot his name) that went out on a public challenges spree because that’s not how it works in a civilized society.



About the area in China I live it’s free to practice martial arts up in northeastern China where I lived before my teachers there are still teaching, same for my teacher in Beijing and I’m sure it’s the same elsewhere too

 

[Same Trick]

You may be able to clarify some things.
Is this true?
"Chinese government regulate martial arts competitions and events to ensure they align with cultural and national values. Traditional martial arts are often promoted to preserve cultural heritage and foster patriotism"

"While these contests are not illegal, they are closely monitored, and the government may intervene if they believe the events undermine traditional values or public order"

"Regulation: The Chinese government issued directives to regulate martial arts competitions and events, ensuring they align with cultural and national values"

These type of things are things that I heard as far back as 20 years ago about how Martial arts were viewed in China.

Chinese government is of course involved in the regulations and overseeing all high level sports events.

China on a global level is a major copetitor in a great number of sports.

As for martial arts sports China is a top competitor in global Wushu events also has a great competitive edge in judo and fencing and are building up a good base for future boxers to successfully compete internationally.
—
Oh, I forgot ‘taekwondo ’ taekwondo is a popular martial art here in China and here are several great practitioners/competitors at an international level

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Gathering and Releasing
To throw the switch, slow and even.
To penetrate the core, gather and release.
To disperse the soul, indulge in sounds and colors.
To reveal the truth, shatter the illusions and.

It's fun to discuss principle/strategy. But this is too abstract to be any useful. Can you map this onto anything that's useful in "combat"?

 

[Same Trick]

It's fun to discuss principle/strategy. But this is too abstract to be any useful. Can you map this onto anything that's useful in "combat"?

It seems the OP did not mean to discus martial arts techniques but rather a story of Chen Changxing,a story that seem to be at degrees the OP’s own speculations in were the esoteric stuff reflecting the supposed mental transformation/revelations of Chen Changxing and the creation of TJQ.

However the name TJQ was most certainly adapted by Yang Luchan while in Beijing .

Gather and release, in a martial sense could mean receive and expell, this is common in most if not all martial arts, and most certainly a method in Chen family boxing in Chen Changxing era as well as generations before him.

 

[Appledog]

My teacher always said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your hands/legs will no longer be yours."

How can those people "maintain" their skill/ability without testing against different opponents?

Sounds like you had a great teacher

 

[Appledog]

It seems the OP did not mean to discus martial arts techniques but rather a story of Chen Changxing,a story that seem to be at degrees the OP’s own speculations in were the esoteric stuff reflecting the supposed mental transformation/revelations of Chen Changxing and the creation of TJQ.

However the name TJQ was most certainly adapted by Yang Luchan while in Beijing .

Gather and release, in a martial sense could mean receive and expell, this is common in most if not all martial arts, and most certainly a method in Chen family boxing in Chen Changxing era as well as generations before him.

The questions in the OP are exceedingly simple, yet no one has tried to answer them.

It's fun to discuss principle/strategy. But this is too abstract to be any useful. Can you map this onto anything that's useful in "combat"?

Of course. The first thing I would say is that it is not abstract. That is one of the issues. In the modern day people have regressed and become less moral and more tense. It takes several years to work out the modern kinks in the body and re-educate people to traditional values. Once this is done, then traditional martial arts instruction along the above lines can begin. Until that time, you can still learn martial arts, but you cannot learn the neigong associated with them. That is the meaning of the post.

 

[windwalker099]

It's fun to discuss principle/strategy. But this is too abstract to be any useful. Can you map this onto anything that's useful in "combat"?

Until that time, you can still learn martial arts, but you cannot learn the neigong associated with them. That is the meaning of the post.

It is good that you have taken the time, to help others understand what they do not know.


small story

The man who walked on water

A conventionally-minded dervish, from an austerely pious school, was walking one day along a river bank. He was absorbed in
concentration upon moralistic and scholastic problems, for this was the form which Sufi teaching had taken in the community to which he belonged. He equated emotional religion with the search for ultimate Truth.

Suddenly his thoughts were interrupted by a loud shout: someone that, was repeating the dervish call. ‘There is no point in that he said to himself, 'because the man is mispronouncing the syllables. Instead of intoning ya hu, he is saying u ya hu.'

Then he realized that he had a duty, as a more careful student, to correct this unfortunate person, who might have had no opportunity of being rightly guided, and was therefore probably only doing his best to attune himself with the idea behind the sounds. So he hired a boat and made his way to the the island in midstream from which the sound appeared to come.

Sitting in a reed hut he found a man, dressed in a dervish robe, moving in time to his own repetition of the initiatory phrase. 'My
friend,' said the first dervish, 'you are mispronouncing the phrase. It is incumbent upon me to tell you this, because there is merit for him who gives and him who takes advice. This is the way in which you speak it.' And he told him.

'Thank you,' said the other dervish humbly. The first dervish entered his boat again, full of satisfaction at having done a good deed.
After all, it was said that a man who could repeat the sacred formula correctly could even walk upon the waves:

something that he had never seen, but always hoped — for some
reason — to be able to achieve.

Now he could hear nothing from the reed hut, his lesson had been well taken. but he was sure that his lesson had been well taken.
Then he heard a faltering u ya as the second dervish started to
repeat the phrase in his old way...

While the first dervish was thinking about perversity of humanity and its persistence in this, reflecting upon the
error, he suddenly saw a strange sight.

From the island the other dervish was towards him, walking on the surface of the water...
coming. Amazed, he stopped rowing. The second dervish walked up to him and said: 'Brother, I am sorry to trouble you, but I have to come out to ask you again the standard method of making the repetition you were telling me, because I find it difficult to re member it.'

 

[JowGaWolf]

About the MMA vs CMA/Tjq guys the only thing suppressed was that specific “MMA” guy(forgot his name) that went out on a public challenges spree because that’s not how it works in a civilized society.

This guy.

His actions led to some new regulation of martial arts. All the regulations push martial arts to align with cultural and national values. MMA is also bound by such regulations. The Cultural and National Value them is going to always pop up

"Grading System: The Global Association of Mixed Martial Arts (GAMMA) China has launched a grading system for MMA. This system aims to standardize and unify the technical levels of MMA practitioners through segment grades, similar to traditional martial art"

"Cultural and Moral Education: The new regulations emphasize the importance of understanding martial arts culture, morality, and etiquette as fundamental aspects of engagement. This is to ensure that MMA practices align with cultural and national values"

My guess is that these changes will probably modernize Kung Fu where the title changes from teachers to coaches and that the tradition of lineage will have less meaning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The questions in the OP are exceedingly simple, yet no one has tried to answer them.

I've heard so many things about its meaning that I couldn't tell you if what I heard is correct or not. The only thing that I do know is that it causes confusion and different interpretations. People will read abstract about Balance and Harmony and come out with totally different understandings of it. It's same issue that religion in general have. Everyone reads the same sentence but gets different meanings.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the modern day people have regressed and become less moral and more tense.

How so? I'm curious as to if you are looking at a smaller or bigger picture.

I think of life like a big ditch that I must jump over in order to move forward. Sometimes I can just move forward with a small jump. Sometimes I have to move backwards to get a running start in order jump over it.

Society is like that. Sometimes we go backwards in order to move forward. Most regression is short, and it only lasts long enough to move forward. While life is a continuous forward movement, life experience and society are not. Those are full of setbacks which often lead to greater movement forward. Much of the backward movement is because people forget past mistakes and end up going through the same thing 2 or more times.

 

[Appledog]

It is good that you have taken the time, to help others understand what they do not know.

Your story is true, but so is mine

“…When I asked why he was not more active teaching himself, he answered in a gravelly voice:

In my opinion, the world has changed. I never teach my son and grandson. People ask me to teach, but people’s minds nowadays are wicked….

A real master can only teach real kung fu to his disciple who learns under him for at least 10 years in order to know his character well or he will create problems. We’ll not teach the practical use of Kung Fu to those who learn only 2 or 3 years. This is the traditional culture. That’s why a lot becomes extinct. Chinese traditional kung fu is like this.

When I asked whether it was possible to modify the way that students were selected and basic training methods, all of the masters at the table said ‘no.‘ They made it clear that the processes through which they learned Kung Fu were integral to the arts and that it would not be possible to teach properly if things were made ‘easier.’…Furthermore, they said that even if they wanted to change the methods, they could not, because they made an oath and were obligated to continue teaching the way that they were taught by their masters. One commented:

It has carried on from generations to generations in this way. From master to student through time. So we can’t do it freely as we wish. We must respect the way things were done. This is how we respect our masters.“

 

[JowGaWolf]

Lol Copilot told me to speak like this
""I see life as a series of challenges, like a ditch we must jump over to move forward. Sometimes, a small jump is enough, but other times, we need to step back and gain momentum to make the leap.

Society works similarly. We often take steps backward to progress. These setbacks are usually brief and necessary for greater advancement. Life moves forward continuously, but our experiences and society are full of setbacks that often lead to significant progress. Many backward steps happen because we forget past mistakes and repeat them."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your story is true, but so is mine

“…When I asked why he was not more active teaching himself, he answered in a gravelly voice:

In my opinion, the world has changed. I never teach my son and grandson. People ask me to teach, but people’s minds nowadays are wicked….

A real master can only teach real kung fu to his disciple who learns under him for at least 10 years in order to know his character well or he will create problems. We’ll not teach the practical use of Kung Fu to those who learn only 2 or 3 years. This is the traditional culture. That’s why a lot becomes extinct. Chinese traditional kung fu is like this.

When I asked whether it was possible to modify the way that students were selected and basic training methods, all of the masters at the table said ‘no.‘ They made it clear that the processes through which they learned Kung Fu were integral to the arts and that it would not be possible to teach properly if things were made ‘easier.’…Furthermore, they said that even if they wanted to change the methods, they could not, because they made an oath and were obligated to continue teaching the way that they were taught by their masters. One commented:

It has carried on from generations to generations in this way. From master to student through time. So we can’t do it freely as we wish. We must respect the way things were done. This is how we respect our masters.“

Too bad he wasn't given more flexibility to be a teacher that will continue to grow the system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That’s why a lot becomes extinct. Chinese traditional kung fu is like this.

Agree with you on this. But there is nothing we can do about it. 10 years may give one enough time to develop some dependable MA skill/ability. But it's hard to find someone who is that serious.

Kung Fu means time. Today, people don't have time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the modern day people have regressed and become less moral and more tense. It takes several years to work out the modern kinks in the body and re-educate people to traditional values. Once this is done, then traditional martial arts instruction along the above lines can begin. Until that time, you can still learn martial arts, but you cannot learn the neigong associated with them. That is the meaning of the post.

- A priest's job is to change a bad person into a good person.
- A MA teacher's job is to teach a student how to fight (I don't like the term "self-defense").

 

[windwalker099]

1. Gathering and Releasing


Your Answer:

凌空勁 Volley jin

Note: my answer

What is shown in the clip is the basis of the practice.
Agreeing or disagreeing with the content of the video
is not the purpose of the video or this thread.

To understand the theory, click on the link provided.

Your story is true, but so is mine

My story an allegory, not meant to be true.

A MA teacher's job is to teach a student how to fight (I don't like the term "self-defense").

Don't label myself as a teacher.
When I work with people, it's to help them understand how to fight, using "taiji" as the method.

Some might feel there is an answer to questions like the one the OP asked.
The answers given are often based on an understanding that exists only in the mind.

While interesting reading, the only answer that makes sense to me is:

"Can you use it?"

 

[Appledog]

Some might feel there is an answer to questions like the one the OP asked.
The answers given are often based on an understanding that exists only in the mind.

While interesting reading, the only answer that makes sense to me is:

"Can you use it?"

I think the complaint with this is that you have essentially made up your own method and nobody is quite sure what it is. I don't think this has anything to do with "can you use it" and more to do with "can you teach it". You're not a teacher, so, probably not?

It takes time before you can claim 'can you use it' is a be all and end all. For some people this is 1 to 3 years, others 10 years, for some 20 or 30, and for some, never.

I am sure your skills are great, but, you do different things than most tai chi people, you criticize the tai chi classics, and so on. I think it's important to acknowledge your skills, but it's equally important to point out that at a certain point you don't really have the kind of credibility to just walk into a dojo and tell jujuitsu people how to train either. Unfortunately, "can you use it" is not the be all and end all that it is supposed to be for most people. This is an important reality which we have to face especialy in the modern world where most people will never have a serious fight in their entire lives.

There are different requirements for teaching.

 

[windwalker099]

I think the complaint with this is that you have essentially made up your own method and nobody is quite sure what it is. I don't think this has anything to do with "can you use it" and more to do with "can you teach it". You're not a teacher, so, probably not?

" I don't label myself as a teacher"
Meaning this is not the way I look at myself..

Others do "label me as their teacher"

My label as my teacher's label was.
Is "practitioner"

The method followed is very well documented with most of the other practitioners, who follow it able to do the same things at a deeper level...

but it's equally important to point out that at a certain point you don't really have the kind of credibility to just walk into a dojo and tell jujuitsu people how to train either.

Why would anyone do that?
I don't practice Jujutsu, although I have interacted with some practitioners from time to time.

My credibility is based on those who have experienced my work in the US, China, and Taiwan, and among my peers.
What more does one need?

Unfortunately, "can you use it" is not the be all and end all that it is supposed to be for most people. This is an important reality which we have to face especially in the modern world where most people will never have a serious fight in their entire lives.

Being able to do what one writes about is a pretty basic requirement.
Would not presume to know what others face in their lives.
Don't know what challenges people encounter,
Only know what those I work with look for.
.

You asked a question.

Answer given.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It takes time before you can claim 'can you use it' is a be all and end all. For some people this is 1 to 3 years, others 10 years, for some 20 or 30, and for some, never.

This is always the reality regardless of what is being discussed. Name a subject or activity and you'll run into different development timelines. I don't believe in zero return on training. In terms on kung fu. If a person train kung fu or any other martial arts then there will be some level of ability and use that the person can obtain.

10 years may give one enough time to develop some dependable MA skill/ability. But it's hard to find someone who is that serious.

It won't take that long.
Improved teaching methods will often shorten learning time.

The concern should be focused more on the quality of the ability and how long it takes to reach that level of quality.

A student who doesn't apply martial arts techniques will be stuck with the mindset of 'This is how it's always done' because they lack practical experience.

On the other hand, a student who can apply martial arts techniques will discover new ways to apply techniques. It's like learning grammar—once you understand it, you can create new sentences beyond basic phrases like 'Hello, how are you. Learning martial arts is similar.

I do high sweeps and low sweeps. One day in sparring my teacher says "hmmm we were always taught to sweep very low." This statement was made in the context of seeing with his own eyes that the back sweep can be done in a higher stance. This is not how my teacher learned. But it is what I learned by training sweeps and foot hooks. I person who doesn't use sweeps will not come to the same conclusion on their own that "that sweeps can be done in a high stance."