Gaseous phase of motion

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
For a non-staic attack? Really? How many people end up understanding it? And does their understanding of it change from situation to situation?

I understand it and love it. It works great for me!!! Go down to Dillians Bar and Saloon in Vegas and youll see the bouncers working the material nightly with success. Personally the timing patterns has added alot of flavor and excitement to my motion and lll bet if you ask Mr. Kongaika he would say the same thing. So would countless others who have learned it from Mr. Mills.
Do keep in mind that Larry hasnt worked with Mr Mills in years and many things are different today then when he was learning it.

I understand it is not for everyone and I can accept that.

But....Please dont confuse your idea and understanding of the material with that of mine or others.

The timing patterns are not a stand alone technique, they are a tool to help you move more explossively. The hands and the body must work together or you will not get the desired results, end of story! I think as an individual developes their body mechanics and become more skilled, they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.

By the way for what is worth, I have never seen a boxer do a complete forward Bow in a fight.

Be Good,

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Thanks Fastmover, that was a great explanation.

Mr. Lear are you saying that someone who learns self defense is unbeatable? I don't think you are, so what are some of the factors that would keep someone from winning a fight?

Skill
Size
Endurance
Environment
Multiple Attackers
Weapons
Chance

To suggest that any individual will win 100% of the fights they engage in is preposterous. The MA training SHOULD help to increase your odds of winning a fight, but there are many other factors involved.

Without incurring the wrath of the Moderators here for jumping off topic, based on your understanding, What is the purpose of the forward bow? What does it accomplish?

To Stucynkski:
The video was merely a demonstration of possible movements based on opponent location. You stated that "BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will." Well I can only assume you meant practical, but when dealing with a single opponent you must worry about a minimum of four weapons that can be used a number of different ways, not to mention combinations. Now when you add an additional attacker you must now be aware of at least 8 weapons that can be used in the varying ways which include, combinations, and simultaneous attack. I simply don't see how waiting to be attacked by two people is more practical than being offensive. That might work in Tai Chi but not in Kenpo. Oh yeah, by the way Mr. Mills owns a nightclub which he bounced in back during Evanstons oil boom years. He's had enough experience cracking heads to know what will work and what won't work.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Fastmover

By the way for what is worth, I have never seen a boxer do a complete forward Bow in a fight.

Be Good,

I've seen Mike Tyson do it... He used to hit on stepthroughs too...

Originally posted by Fastmover

The timing patterns are not a stand alone technique, they are a tool to help you move more explossively. The hands and the body must work together or you will not get the desired results, end of story! I think as an individual developes their body mechanics and become more skilled, they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.

I'd rather prepare for the worst and hope for the best... The timing drills you are referencing can be pulled of with good transitional stances. I don't buy the last sentence of your paragraph above.

Some people (Generally bigger people don't understand when your technique doens't work on them in a fight... at that point their understanding of your basic shape will change after they mash you into mush by stomping on you.

Originally posted by Fastmover

But....Please dont confuse your idea and understanding of the material with that of mine or others.

I didn't think I was.

Originally posted by Fastmover

I understand it and love it. It works great for me!!! Go down to Dillians Bar and Saloon in Vegas and youll see the bouncers working the material nightly with success.

How many people have they killed? No seriously? I used to be a bouncer at a local club here in Los Angeles, and nearly killed someone with a forward bow/heel palm strike to the chest. Anyone there have a similar situation occour over at Dillians?

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
I've seen Mike Tyson do it... He used to hit on stepthroughs too...

We are going to have to agree to disagree on many points. Tyson may have used body rotation to hit but it wasnt a forward bow. Was his back heal on the ground? Most boxers do not punch off their rear hand with their rear heal stuck to the floor. Dont get me wrong here, the forwad bow is a great stance and certainly not useless, it has its purpose as you found out in your bouncing days.

As for simlar situations at Dillians? Yes unfortunately some folks have been hurt. If you check out both technique line videos one of the guys works at Dillions and in my opinion very skilled fighter.

Also have you ever trained or studied with Mr. Mills to make such absolute statements about his methods? You can not be absolute about other understanding of the material.

On another note, I have watched the Tatum video many times and It is clear to me that even though the attacker is moving the arms, it is no way at speed or strength. Still I think the intent of helping others in Kenpo through internet video is prety cool.

As for not buying my statement about folks, developing their body mechanics and becoming more skilled, the result of which they are able to accomplish the same if not more with less effort.
How is it that Bruce Lee AND Mr. Parker could hit hard with a 1 inch punch? Could it have anything to do with good body mechanics?

Be Good

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... You stated that "BLOCKING two people at once is a far more procatical skill, then you can strike at will." ... when dealing with a single opponent you must worry about a minimum of four weapons that can be used a number of different ways, not to mention combinations. Now when you add an additional attacker you must now be aware of at least 8 weapons that can be used in the varying ways which include, combinations, and simultaneous attack. I simply don't see how waiting to be attacked by two people is more practical than being offensive. ...

I consider this primitive thinking. If I fight you, you will NOT actually have "four weapons" IN RANGE at any one time, and doubling the opponents does not double the threat if you use common sense.

Clarification: Not only can I engage you in a way that will not allow you to reach me with half or more of your "weapons", but if you bring a friend along, I will make you hit him and make him block you and vice versa. This is not some Jackie Chan pipe dream or high level technique. If you practice freestyle sparring in groups you learn this quickly.

The point is that moving around more than one person in simple patterns will cause a lot of their "weapons" to not only be out of range, but will cancel each other out and actually mess each other up.

And this is not "Tai Chi thinking". This is fighting, the theory and practice of which I learned from real experience before I really started studying Tai Chi.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I consider this primitive thinking. If I fight you, you will NOT actually have "four weapons" IN RANGE at any one time, and doubling the opponents does not double the threat if you use common sense.

Okay Sport, first off you know nothing about me or how I fight. Second the video was a demonstration of POSSIBLE movements based on a specifc positioning of opponents. It is not a formal technique in the AKKI curriculum, it was simply a demonstration. My statement about opponent weapons was in reference to the relative positions of the participants in the video. Obviously opponent positioning is an important if not vital aspect of dealing with multiple attackers and you would not necessarily want to find yourself in that particular position. However, seeing as it was a demonstration on how a particular movement (in this case a back knuckle) could be expanded to address multiple attackers in close proximity and not a treatise on multiple attacker strategy maybe we could agree to disagree.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

How many people have they killed? No seriously? I used to be a bouncer at a local club here in Los Angeles, and nearly killed someone with a forward bow/heel palm strike to the chest. Anyone there have a similar situation occour over at Dillians?

The guys at Dillans are freaking Raptors, but that's a different story.

Gene the door guy did thrusting salute to some fool who came up to a group of us standing outside the bar. The kick dropped the guys height and the palm heel crushed him. I honestly wasn't concerned about the situation but Gene told the guy to leave and wasn't satisfied with his response.

Josh accented the parking lot with a huge pool of some guys blood after executing Buckling Arrow (similar to Tripping arrow) and I can only imagine what has happened during New Years or Rodeo finals. Just about every employee there is an AKKI student and they seem to do just fine. Seeing John Herman and the rest of the Wrecking Crew is one of the best parts about going to Vegas.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Seeing John Herman and the rest of the Wrecking Crew is one of the best parts about going to Vegas.

JOHN HERMAN is a GOOD MAN! :cheers:

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
JOHN HERMAN is a GOOD MAN! :cheers:

Wow it is a small world!

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... it was a demonstration on how a particular movement (in this case a back knuckle) could be expanded to address multiple attackers in close proximity and not a treatise on multiple attacker strategy maybe we could agree to disagree.

You are absoultely right. But still worth the discussion, as I wasn't the only one who inquired for clarification on what the point of the demo was.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
You are absoultely right. But still worth the discussion, as I wasn't the only one who inquired for clarification on what the point of the demo was.

I think the point of Mr. Mills demonstration was to show that you could strike multiple opponents/targets with increased speed if one was to apply the principle of rebounding in a given situation, but that's just my take on it.

I would say that he was moving in a liquid state (not a gaseous state) in this particular circumstance... Which by the way looked really cool, but could have looked better if the guys in the clip were actually attacking him.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Paul Mills Video Clip

The above clip may take a while depending on your download speed.

I couldn't see exactly what he was doing when he sped up, it was a blur to me. Was he still doing two back knuckles in succession when he sped up?

 

[M F]

I couldn't see exactly what he was doing when he sped up, it was a blur to me. Was he still doing two back knuckles in succession when he sped up?

Yes,
and I believe some elbows as well.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Ah, ok. I see now he is doing the back knucles, just a lot faster using rebounding.

 

[dcence]

I would say that he was moving in a liquid state (not a gaseous state) in this particular circumstance... Which by the way looked really cool, but could have looked better if the guys in the clip were actually attacking him.

Actually this is gaseous as well, if one understands the context. This three strike sequence is from one of the AKKI's green belt technique called Swirling Destruction. As taught those three strikes go to one individual attacking from the right flank, grabbing your right shoulder with their left hand, like in Sword and Hammer. At the seminar, Mr. Mills was showing how this three strike combination can be altered to strike two attackers who have approached in a threatening manner.

This leads to the other point of his seminar of not necessarily waiting for an attack before striking. Sometimes preemptive action is appropriate instead of defensive reaction. That is why the individuals are not 'attacking'.

The first back knuckle goes to groin or solar plexus to attacker #1, the second strike can be a backknuckle to face or reverse handsword to neck of attacker #2, with the outward elbow going to the solar plexus of #2. The video clip doesn't show what I remember as a right punch back to #1 reboounding off the outward elbow.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Actually this is gaseous as well, if one understands the context. This three strike sequence is from one of the AKKI's green belt technique called Swirling Destruction. As taught those three strikes go to one individual attacking from the right flank, grabbing your right shoulder with their left hand, like in Sword and Hammer. At the seminar, Mr. Mills was showing how this three strike combination can be altered to strike two attackers who have approached in a threatening manner.

This leads to the other point of his seminar of not necessarily waiting for an attack before striking. Sometimes preemptive action is appropriate instead of defensive reaction. That is why the individuals are not 'attacking'.

The first back knuckle goes to groin or solar plexus to attacker #1, the second strike can be a backknuckle to face or reverse handsword to neck of attacker #2, with the outward elbow going to the solar plexus of #2. The video clip doesn't show what I remember as a right punch back to #1 reboounding off the outward elbow.

That's still not gaseous to me Derek, critical point maybe but still liquid in nature.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[dcence]

That's still not gaseous to me

Perhaps a matter of point of view. To me it is the essence of gaseous motion to take a technique designed for one person and hit two people with it. You are filling the volume of the space given to you instead of moving mechanically with the set pattern as a solid does, or rounding the corners and elongating circles to fluidly adjust to "what-if" scenarios as in a liquid state. Gaseous action happens when the strike to one person rebounds into a strike to another. That is why Mr. Parker used the term "gaseous", as he explained it to us, because the molecules of a gas repeatedly bounce off eachother and the confines of the container. That is just my personal experience with him.

In fact, an example I've seen used was Delayed Sword against three guys standing to the front. The block went to attacker #1's punch, the kick went to the attacker #2's groin, and the handsword to attacker #3's neck, moving left to right. Any technique can be gaseous.

I would even goes as far to say that you may attain the gaseous state whether it is a single attacker or multiple attacker situation, if your strikes are immediately rebounding off your attacker and yourself into additional strikes to fill the volume of the space between you and attacker.

For example you can mechanically do the a-b-c's of Sword and Hammer like a white belt and move in the solid state. You can begin to elongate the circles and round the corners to move more fluidly and tailor your moves to fit your opponent (like water wraps around an object) as in a liquid state, or you can employ some rebounding, off your opponents and/or yourself, for gaseous. That is the way I look at it.

Though I do believe the gaseous state has most application in multiple attacker situations.

Derek

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by dcence:

"Perhaps a matter of point of view. To me it is the essence of gaseous motion to take a technique designed for one person and hit two people with it. You are filling the volume of the space given to you instead of moving mechanically with the set pattern as a solid does, or rounding the corners and elongating circles to fluidly adjust to "what-if" scenarios as in a liquid state. Gaseous action happens when the strike to one person rebounds into a strike to another. That is why Mr. Parker used the term "gaseous", as he explained it to us, because the molecules of a gas repeatedly bounce off eachother and the confines of the container. That is just my personal experience with him."

It seems to me that Gaseous strikes are simultaneous strikes rather than strikes that are executed within qurarter beat or eighth beat timing sequences. Quarter beat or eighth beat striking sequences are liquid in that these strikes rebound to their next destination like liquid sloshing around in a container. Gas expanding in the same container, on the other hand, meets all the surfaces of the container simultaneously.

This analogy, to me, has more to do with how the liquids and gases move on an asthetic level compared to the human anatomy than how these things move on a molecular level compared to the human anatomy. But, that's just my understanding.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
It seems to me that Gaseous strikes are simultaneous strikes rather than strikes that are executed within qurarter beat or eighth beat timing sequences. Quarter beat or eighth beat striking sequences are liquid in that these strikes rebound to their next destination like liquid sloshing around in a container. Gas expanding in the same container, on the other hand, meets all the surfaces of the container simultaneously.

This analogy, to me, has more to do with how the liquids and gases move on an asthetic level compared to the human anatomy than how these things move on a molecular level compared to the human anatomy. But, that's just my understanding.

Well, Billy, you have been listening LOL. Good analogy.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Nightingale]

I like your new avatar, Clyde!