Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[drop bear]

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. There IS no "one size fits all" for self defense situations. Every single situation is different, and will require different responses. However, what I am saying is that once you are forced to respond to a violent attack, you need to respond with everything you have as if your attacker is attempting to kill you, because that just may be true. There are a lot of different things that can be done and considered before the violence starts. However, once it has begun, you have to respond as overwhelmingly as possible. If you don't, there's a chance you'll end up dead.

Yeah see that is over cooking things. And not tactically sound generally either. Because it encourages in fighting or pocket fighting. Which is risky if you don't have a solid chin and better striking.

 

[Steve]

That is the thing about personal protection skills Steve. You may never need them, or you may need them in the next ten minutes. You just never know. If you look only at statistics your chances of having to use them are low but...... wait for it..... if you need them you need them now! Look back through time and history and you can rest assured there are many people who wish they had them when some thing violent happened to them. Think of it as insurance. You may never use your insurance but if your house burns down you certainly will be happy that you had homeowners insurance! It would really, really suck if you didn't!!!

If you look through this thread you will see people with experience and training advocating:

Awareness, Avoidance, de-escalation skills both verbal and non-verbal, understanding human behavior and criminal behavior, understanding crime in your area, empty hand physical personal protection skills, weapon training both blunt, edged and firearms and a whole lot more.

Brian, you can't learn everything, and if the goal is to learn practical self defense, then one should focus on self defense situations that one might actually encounter. Stacking the odds, right? I rate my chances of being gangraped in the manner elder outlined so eloquently described as being right about zilch. It'sright up there with buying a fallout shelter. Could it happen? Sure, and I bet if the bombs start to fall I'm really going to regret not building one. But given limited resources, it makes a lot more sense to me to focus on situations that, I don't know, might happen.

For women, this is different than for a man. For someone in one neighborhood, it will be different than for another. For younger people, it may be different than for senior citizens. For cops, it may be different than for a white collar business person.

I don't pretend to know what would be most practical for each different person. But I do believe that an emphasis on things that might actually occur Is a better us of ones time and money than to fret and wrong ones hands about things that could, maybe, possibly, in the very worst case, happen.

Truth is, if it's your time, it's your time. Being crushed by a semi or just drop dead from an aneurism or get stabbed in the back by some random crazy person. But that's not stuff you can anticipate. You just have to do your best, try to be healthy, drive defensively and live your life. Reasonable precautions make perfect sense, but I think there's a point where one is so focused on mitigating risk it becomes unhealthy.

And so again, it just seems to me that the right self defense training for one group will be very different than for another, because the real world risks we all encounter are different. A self defense class focusing on rape,prevention for me is pretty damned stupid.

 

[Steve]

Do

Just answer the question....I mean, unless it makes you uncomfortable.....because, I don't know, you think you'd like it or something.....

.....I mean, I spent the better part of my childhood being poked and prodded and having all manner of medical stuff stuck into me.....while I'd never ask for it-what, with its unwelcome associations with illness and impending death for me- it's okay with me if you like things like Taiwanese midget porn star penis forcibly violating your anus....I don't judge...

do yiu think I'm uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality? Really the only part of this that's uncomfortable is that you're actually trying to make me uncomfortable instead of trying to have a discussion. Downright embarrassing. We could play "top that story" all day long, making up unlikely, horrific scenarios, but fiction it is, and fiction it will always be. We may as well be talking about aliens probing random farmers For how useful and relevant it is to this thread. .

 

[jks9199]

Well, I hear what you're saying, elder999. But i'm not sure I understand. If bad guy #1 is helpless, but he has a buddy, it's okay to kill him. I'll have to mull that over for a while. Doesn't compute right now.

Is he helpless at the time his head is stomped? Was there reasonable time to recognize the change in the situation and stop? The Force Science Institute has actually done research into why police sometimes seem to shoot someone in the back... but the truth is that a person can turn, wing a shot, and turn and run faster than the cop can react. In other words, by the time the cop has pulled the trigger -- the bad guy's back has turned, even though he was facing the cop when the cop started to shoot.

 

[jks9199]

I dunno, but in my dojo, attempting to forcibly sexually penetrate a female is one of them.

In a legal sense, rape or forcible sodomy is grievous bodily harm, justifying the use of lethal force (that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death).

 

[elder999]

Do

do yiu think I'm uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality? Really the only part of this that's uncomfortable is that you're actually trying to make me uncomfortable instead of trying to have a discussion. Downright embarrassing. We could play "top that story" all day long, making up unlikely, horrific scenarios, but fiction it is, and fiction it will always be. We may as well be talking about aliens probing random farmers For how useful and relevant it is to this thread. .

Just answer the question.

Male rape and forcible sodomy have even less to do with "the idea of homosexuality," than male on female rape have to do with "sex."

And here:

In a legal sense, rape or forcible sodomy is grievous bodily harm, justifying the use of lethal force (that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death).

In a legal sense, rape or forcible sodomy is grievous bodily harm, justifying the use of lethal force (that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death).

QFT Twice, because....well, it's that true.So there's the legal justification: studies, and data and supporting information be damned.

As or the rest of what you have to say, the only part that's "uncomfortable" are your twisting mental gyrations and philosophical prevarication in avoidance of the answer to the question, which is the only real answer, and the only one you're capable of making, but that completely demolishes the underpinning of your entire specious argument.This is what you find "downright embarrassing," not the fact of me trying to make you uncomfortable (which I admitted I was several posts ago) but the fact that you cannot answer the question honestly without impeaching your position.

Rape is a lethal threat, and answerable with lethal force. Period. End of story. Full stop.

So, @Steve , again, I'm going to ask you: some 265 pound deviant is going to put something up your poop-shoot that doesn't belong there-doesn't matter if it's his penis or a bathroom plunger, that's his.....intention.

What are you gonna do to stop it?

What are you willing to do?

What's justified?

Put another way (in re: ridiculous, "fictional" scenarios) I currently work and live part time in the desert in southen Cal....ifornia, literally in the middle of nowhere, and where summer temps can reach 126 F. I drive a Jaguar, these days, that I named "Irene," for @Tez3 ....they get a bad rap for reliability, though they're not as reliable as any of the German cars or even Japanese cars that I own......for reliability, give me the Porsche.....in any case, I regularly maintain the car-at the dealer. Get new tires, freshen the brakes, get tune ups and oil changes, etc.

I also keep 2 gallons of water in the trunk (along with some hiking equipment and energy bars), because.....middle of nowhere desert....

I replace it every couple of months, and water the plants with it...because....plastic tasting water!! (Hey, I'll survive, but i'd rather be comfortable in the "ficitonal" scenario I'm imagining...)

Of course, from the sound of things, you'd rather die of thirst than prepare for being stuck without water.....

 

[drop bear]

You guys do love your rape talk.




It is getting a bit weird.

 

[elder999]

You guys do love your rape talk.




It is getting a bit weird.

Be glad you're in Australia, and shut up, then.....

 

[Steve]

Just answer the question.

ive answered your question several times now, elder. I can't help it if you aren't satisfied with the answer you got. You seem to think pressing me will distract me from the point.

And if yiu think that spending my time training to protect myself from gangs of game raping thugs is a worthwhile way to spend my time, I think you must have drinking that home made wine you mentioned in a previous thread.

 

[Steve]

Be glad you're in Australia, and shut up, then.....

drop bear, let me assure yiu that we don't have roaming bands of rapists running the streets throughout the country.

 

[elder999]

ive answered your question several times now, elder.

Well. no @Steve , you haven't. You haven't answered it at all.

I can't help it if you aren't satisfied with the answer you got

"It doesn't matter" isn't a answer-especially to what is, essentially, a "yes or no" question.

You seem to think pressing me will distract me from the point.

You seem to be missing the point altogether.

And if yiu think that spending my time training to protect myself from gangs of game raping thugs is a worthwhile way to spend my time, I think you must have drinking that home made wine you mentioned in a previous thread.

I make more than 800 gallons a year of that "homemade wine." It sells in some local restaurants for more than $30 a bottle. It's won medals in competition.

And I'm medically restricted to 2 alcoholic beverages a day, because I'm on blood-thinners. No getting drunk -sob!-for me! (And I smoked a lamb shank for dinner-do you have any idea what kind of torture it is to have my cooking skills and be restricted to two glasses of wine with dinner????!!!

)In any case:

Don't insult my "homemade" swill-it's marvelous...

And I notice that a few people agree with you. That's really alarming..

Yeah, that "alarming" feeling?

It's called being wrong.

 

[Buka]

Tough subject. Maybe we all need to chill a little bit before it gets under our skin.

I witnessed a gang rape when I was seven years old. It was across the street from my house, on a bridge at night, and I didn't know what was going on until several years later. But I knew it was the scariest thing I had ever seen. I was too frightened to wake my folks and tell them, I don't know why, I was just scared.

Seven of my past students have been raped, at least that I know of. Five female and two male. My guess is there has been many more. Two of them while they were my students. In those two cases drugs and alchol were involved. Three of my close personal friends have been raped, one extremely violently.

Nasty subject. May we all discuss it with some sort of decency. I don't even know if that's the right word. And I don't really know why rape rips the scab off more than murder does to me, but it does.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve,

It is kind of funny that you are trying to lecture people here that have vast amounts of personal protection skill sets, knowledge and some have taught this information for decades. (it is like someone lecturing a person whose system contains kata, on kata when they do not practice it) Some of us have even had students use the skills for protection. If you look through the thread it was not to long ago that you were advocating not even practicing physical skill sets for self defense or that they were optional.

Fighting skills for most seem to be optional, based upon what has been said by many in this thread. Handy, certainly, but not essential.

Brian said: (damn the quote function )

I would say that the only person who said physical personal protection skills are optional in this thread is you.

I think we have brought you around that you need physical skill sets. We (I mean collectively) throughout the thread have all advocated awareness, avoidance, de-escalation techniques, etc. Everyone here from Elder999, jks9199, myself, k-man, drop bear, etc. all know and value those skill sets. They are essential and everyone I have met that understands this spends quite a bit of time on them. However, if they fail and you need physical personal protection skill sets you need them now.(regardless of statistics, what ifs, etc.) Violence can and does happen and not to acknowledge this is like putting your head in the sand. (ie. like an ostrich) Realistically taking a 2 to 3 hour course may not give you the physical skill sets that you need or the where withal to implement them when you need them. (though it is better than nothing) Physical martial skill sets require instruction and ongoing practice. They are perishable skills! I am sure though that you already realize this from BJJ training. (or you should)

I, personally am a balanced martial practitioner. I like many others on the thread spend time on the mental aspect as well as the physical aspect and because of this my spiritual side is also nourished. I seek appropriate balance in all my training. Nor do I advocate that everyone take my path because it is a hard, demanding road. Though those that train with me will learn awareness, avoidance, de-escalation skills, etc.

Now, I get it you train for fun, being in shape, etc. That is cool and a great reason to train. I personally train, because like you I like enjoy it and it keeps me in shape, etc. However, the foremost reason I train is for skills that 'god forbid" I ever have to use them again will be there for me. In other words I train to be effective in a moment of violence. Being in shape, having good comrades, having fun just happens naturally!

I would advise you to also do some reading on personal protection to broaden your horizon.

Check out:

Facing Violence by Rory Miller

and

Self-Defense: What you need to know, when you need it by Marc MacYoung

I can list more good reading but that is a start!

Understand that both of these men also teach physical skill sets to their students so that they have them if they need them! Rory practices a form of karate and is an in-fighting specialist. Marc and his wife teach Dango Jiro of which they are the founder's.

 

[elder999]

drop bear, let me assure yiu that we don't have roaming bands of rapists running the streets throughout the country.

Not for lack of looking on @Steve 's part, I'll bet, @drop bear .....

 

[Dirty Dog]

And if yiu think that spending my time training to protect myself from gangs of game raping thugs is a worthwhile way to spend my time, I think you must have drinking that home made wine you mentioned in a previous thread.

If you're ever confronted by a gang of game raping thugs, I'd call the ASPCA ASAP...

 

[Steve]

Steve,

It is kind of funny that you are trying to lecture people here that have vast amounts of personal protection skill sets, knowledge and some have taught this information for decades. (it is like someone lecturing a person whose system contains kata, on kata when they do not practice it) Some of us have even had students use the skills for protection. If you look through the thread it was not to long ago that you were advocating not even practicing physical skill sets for self defense or that they were optional.

If it appears I'm lecturing, that's a real shame and is not my intent. I apologize for wasting your time, and wish yiu all the very best.

 

[elder999]

okay,....that was a little over the line...I'll go stand in the corner now....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If it appears I'm lecturing, that's a real shame and is not my intent. I apologize for wasting your time, and wish yiu all the very best.

Steve your passionate and that is great! I love what you do in BJJ and feel that you are trying to broaden your perspective and open to new ideas. (which is awesome) Just understand that some of us have been where you are at decades ago. We're good. (you and I) No need not to participate!

Certainly it was not my intent to drive you away from the thread!

 

[elder999]

If it appears I'm lecturing, that's a real shame and is not my intent. I apologize for wasting your time, and wish yiu all the very best.

Don't go away @Steve -it's not your position or "lecturing" that's a waste of time, it's your intellectual dishonest, which, in case you hadn't noticed, brings out the worst in me....."It doesn't matter" is an intellectually dishonest answer to a "yes or no" question. You wanna be part of the discussion?

.Answer the question.

 

[Jenna]

Nasty subject. May we all discuss it with some sort of decency. I don't even know if that's the right word.

That was my feeling too.. when there is discussion on here people learn.. I know I do.. when there is argument I do not know what good come from it..

And I don't really know why rape rips the scab off more than murder does to me, but it does.

because in murder, the victim does not suffer along with the surviving family.. in sexual abuses, the victim is to all intents murdered and but must confront existence in the land of the living, J