Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[KangTsai]

I swear,
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?

 

[Tez3]

Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch

Grasshopper you have much to learn there's many styles that can cope with this, many take actions to make sure they don't get into it in the first place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I swear,
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?

I'd guess almost any well-skilled opponent can "deal with" this clinch in some form or fashion. The hardest part would be getting to it, since you'd have to get past all of their strikes and defenses. Since it's used in Muay Thai, they're obviously among the best-trained against it, but similar elements are taught in many arts. Even a boxer - among the least "grapply" of arts - would probably have some defense against this.

 

[Danny T]

Full Head Control vs. Untrained

Are you referring to a completely untrained person or a who is trained in the martial arts but not trained in the above specific clinch?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Every system has techniques where there is very little you can do if you get caught in it. most people who get caught in these techniques are forced to "ride it out." Even trained Muay Thai fighters get caught in a clinch that they can't escape which usually results in them hitting the ground or catching a few knees. In a self-defense context the Muay Thai clinch is probably less valuable compared to the damage elbows and kicks can do.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. A good Thai clinch is a serious issue to deal with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).

You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".

There are many different ways to break apart a MT clinch. But if you have experience in MA, you should try to take advantage on it instead. The advantage that you can take on it is "if your opponent wants his arms to be closer to your body, you want to help his arms to be even more closer to your body. If he want to bend his arms, you want to help him to bend his arms even more".

When you use Thai clinch, you will give your opponent a chance to lock both of your arms between your body and your opponent's body. It's a "helpless" feeling that you don't want to experience it.

You have 2 arms and your opponent also has 2 arms. When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. His arms can wrap around your head from outside include your both arms. When your head and arms are wrapped, you can't see very well, that's the time he will attack your leg and take you down.

 

[drop bear]

You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".

When you use Thai clinch, you will give your opponent a chance to lock both of your arms between your body and your opponent's body. It's a "helpless" feeling that you don't want to experience it.

The concern is when you use both arms to control your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. His arms can wrap around your head include your both arms from outside.

Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.

In your clip, since his opponent didn't pin his arm onto his chest, the distance is too far and that gives him too much freedom and mobility.

When your opponent moves in toward you, you want to move in toward him too. You don't want to move back as shown in your clip.

Also when your opponent strikes you with his knee, he is standing on one leg. if you can't figure out how to take him down right at that moment, you may have serious issue with your take down skill.

Your opponent's neck tie arms gives you a free contact point if you know how to take advantage on it. Here is an example.

 

[drop bear]

Double post.

 

[drop bear]

In your clip, since his opponent didn't pin his arm onto his chest, the distance is too far and that gives him too much freedom and mobility.

When your opponent moves in toward you, you want to move in toward him too. You don't want to move back as shown in your clip.

Also when your opponent strikes you with his knee, he is standing on one leg. if you can't figure out how to take him down right at that moment, you may have serious issue with your take down skill. Your opponent's neck tie arms gives you a free contact point if you know how to take advantage on it.

It also makes life easier if your opponent clinches without breaking your posture. And then stands there not throwing knees at you. The falls over.

If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It also makes life easier if your opponent clinches without breaking your posture. And then stands there not throwing knees at you. The falls over.

To train how to take your opponent down during his double neck tie with knee striking is a very important part of Sanshou/Sanda training because it happens very often.

 

[drop bear]

To train how to take your opponent down during his double neck tie with knee striking is a very important part of Sanshou/Sanda training because it happens very often.

Then you would start with a real Thai clinch wouldn't you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?

I have some training clips just for that. When I dig it out, I'll share here.

It's leg against leg skill. When your opponent raises his knee to strike you, you also raise your knee to block his leg. You then spin your body and use your leg to "horse back kick" his standing leg and take him down. It will be your take down skill against your opponent's take down skill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Then you would start with a real Thai clinch wouldn't you?

What's the difference between a "real Thai clinch" and "double neck tie"?

 

[drop bear]

What's the difference?

The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.

You are head locking through a v shaped arm that is anchored to to your own head. While they have dominant position. You are throwing against the strengths of that clinch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.

But when you try to break your opponent's structure, your opponent can also break your structure too. In clinch, whoever can break the other's structure will win.

In that clip, a left arm pin followed by a head lock can bend his opponent's spine sideway (break the structure) before the take down is applied.

I know it sounds like paradox. You want to break your opponent's structure but you don't want your opponent to break your structure. It's as simple as you want to punch my head and I also want to punch your head. Whoever can punch the other's head first will win.

 

[drop bear]

But when you train to break your opponent's structure, your opponent can also break your structure too. In clinch, whoever can break the other's structure will win. In that clip, a left arm pin followed by a head lock can bend his opponent's spine sideway (break the structure).

I know it sounds like paradox. You want to break your opponent's structure but you don't want your opponent to break your structure.

If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.

My personal experience may be different from yours. When my opponent uses double neck tie on me, after I have obtained a left arm pin, a body spin to my left with a powerful right hay maker on the back of his head can knock his head to his right and crash his structure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".

There are many different ways to break apart a MT clinch. But if you have experience in MA, you should try to take advantage on it instead. The advantage that you can take on it is "if your opponent wants his arms to be closer to your body, you want to help his arms to be even more closer to your body. If he want to bend his arms, you want to help him to bend his arms even more".

When you use Thai clinch, you will give your opponent a chance to lock both of your arms between your body and your opponent's body. It's a "helpless" feeling that you don't want to experience it.

You have 2 arms and your opponent also has 2 arms. When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. His arms can wrap around your head from outside include your both arms. When your head and arms are wrapped, you can't see very well, that's the time he will attack your leg and take you down.

That's not a Muay Thai clinch. The mechanics of a Muay Thai clinch are different. The Muay Thai clinch seeks to disrupt a persons stance. The moment the person feels like you are going to do something thing to get out of it, he will pull your off balance by whipping you quickly either to the right or to the left. When the Muay Thai clinch is executed properly it just destroys the balance.

The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.

You are head locking through a v shaped arm that is anchored to to your own head. While they have dominant position. You are throwing against the strengths of that clinch.

I've been in a Muay Thai Clinch and it sucks to have one locked in. It's almost a constant battle of trying to maintain balance and structure. The moment the opponent feels that you will try to escape, they will jerk you to the left or right, by the time you regain balance you are either catching a knee or being tossed. The best chance to deal with that type of clinch is to prevent it from being locked on. Once a person is in a full clinch then it's just literally going to be a rough ride. Most people can escape from it because it's not a technique where they just hold on to you and put you to sleep. Eventually the person will release the clinch but not after he has given some brutal punishment.

Notice how one guy is doing the clinch and the other guy is taking the punishment for conditioning purposes. That conditioning will become useful when he screws up and has to take a ride on the Muay Thai Clinch bus.