JadeDragon3
Black Belt
I say go full contact or at least hard contact if not full. Allow face contact. But do away with the points. If you have to have points give the option of either competing with points or full contact then.
Full contact or point system?
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Who's rule system do you mean? Olympic/WTF? Or somone different?
WTF already is full contact. Forgive my ignorance, but what is a knock down rule? Does this refer to sweeps and takedowns or to K.O.'s? There are knockouts in WTF, but the headshot must be from a kick.
I suggested on another thread recently that I feel that the Kukkiwon should come up with a set of sparring rules for the dojang and competition that would be more reflective of the full scope of taekwondo.
Let the WTF be the WTF. The kick-centric rules are just fine and the challenge the competitors in a different way than any other rule set.
The KKW should save a more realistic style for dojang practice, a separate circuit (so as to not compete with WTF style), and for things like the Hanmadang.
Daniel
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
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Ok, first off, I understand that not all people want to compete in full contact matches. After giving it some thought, I can see the point of what Jarod was saying. The only problem, also like Jarod mentioned, is that it's far too easy for people to "game the game" when the rulesets are so closed.
Here's how it should go IMO:
Full Contact
The competitors are seperated into weight classes, and the matches should consist of 2 rounds that last for 3 minutes.
Each competitor will be required to wear the following protective gear: mouthguard, helmet, 3 oz. MMA style gloves, chest/body protector, shin/instep pads.
Valid techniques/targets are: kicks to the legs (above the knee only), any technique to the front and sides of the body above the belt, hand techniques as well as kicks are allowed to the head, punches and kicks to the face are allowed...no techniques are allowed to the back of the head, neck, back, groin, or any point below the knee of an opponent.
Points will be awarded to the competitors based on clean techniques that land effectively with visible force.
A win by knockout will not be awarded to a competitor that is thowing the technique "out of desperation"...i.e. a win by knockout will not be awarded to someone who knocks their opponent by throwing a spin hook kick to the head while falling or running away. Instead, the win will be ruled as a TKO.
Point Sparring
The competitors are seperated into weight classes and rank, and the matches should consist of 2 rounds that last for 3 minutes.
Point sparring matches will be continuous (match does not stop after each point is scored)
Each competitor will be required to wear the following protective gear: mouthguard, helmet, chest/body protector, shin/instep pads.
Contact is light to medium.
Target areas and techniques allowed are: punching and kicking techniques to the front and side of the body, punching and kicking to the sides and top of the head. Nothing is allowed below the belt, directly to the face, to the back of the head, or to the back of an opponent.
Points will be scored for delivering a clean, legal techniqe to a legal target on your opponent...the technique must be a clean techique that clearly connects, but does not have to be delivered with force.
A competitor will not be awarded the win for a round or the match for throwing only kicks or punches. A valid attempt to score should be done by both kicking and punching. Competitors who throw only kicks or only punches for a round will lose that round, even if they scored more point...and if the same pattern continues for the second round, the match will go to the opponent, regardless of points.
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I think that all of that sounds pretty fair, and if that ruleset is followed for point sparring, I really don't think we would see anyone being able to "game the game", since they are required to throw both punches and kicks.
Here's how it should go IMO:
Full Contact
The competitors are seperated into weight classes, and the matches should consist of 2 rounds that last for 3 minutes.
Each competitor will be required to wear the following protective gear: mouthguard, helmet, 3 oz. MMA style gloves, chest/body protector, shin/instep pads.
Valid techniques/targets are: kicks to the legs (above the knee only), any technique to the front and sides of the body above the belt, hand techniques as well as kicks are allowed to the head, punches and kicks to the face are allowed...no techniques are allowed to the back of the head, neck, back, groin, or any point below the knee of an opponent.
Points will be awarded to the competitors based on clean techniques that land effectively with visible force.
A win by knockout will not be awarded to a competitor that is thowing the technique "out of desperation"...i.e. a win by knockout will not be awarded to someone who knocks their opponent by throwing a spin hook kick to the head while falling or running away. Instead, the win will be ruled as a TKO.
Point Sparring
The competitors are seperated into weight classes and rank, and the matches should consist of 2 rounds that last for 3 minutes.
Point sparring matches will be continuous (match does not stop after each point is scored)
Each competitor will be required to wear the following protective gear: mouthguard, helmet, chest/body protector, shin/instep pads.
Contact is light to medium.
Target areas and techniques allowed are: punching and kicking techniques to the front and side of the body, punching and kicking to the sides and top of the head. Nothing is allowed below the belt, directly to the face, to the back of the head, or to the back of an opponent.
Points will be scored for delivering a clean, legal techniqe to a legal target on your opponent...the technique must be a clean techique that clearly connects, but does not have to be delivered with force.
A competitor will not be awarded the win for a round or the match for throwing only kicks or punches. A valid attempt to score should be done by both kicking and punching. Competitors who throw only kicks or only punches for a round will lose that round, even if they scored more point...and if the same pattern continues for the second round, the match will go to the opponent, regardless of points.
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I think that all of that sounds pretty fair, and if that ruleset is followed for point sparring, I really don't think we would see anyone being able to "game the game", since they are required to throw both punches and kicks.
JadeDragon3
Black Belt
I agree with everything but the protective equipment. I've done plenty of point sparring on the NASKA circuit (the largest circuit) and I feel that a chest protector and shin guards are an over kill. They shouldn't have to be mandatory, only optional. I will agree though that hand pads, foot pads, mouth guard, head guard, and groin cup should be manatory. For me a chest protector is to binding and gives the opponent a larger target to hit.
I'll ask again: what is a 'knock down' rule?
Daniel
Daniel
Manny
Senior Master
I think there would be room for the two systems, one can be point system where all the punches and kicks are controlable and the full contact system. The only thing I will chance would be:
1.-Punches and hand technikes to the head.
2.-Any kind of kicks from waist to above.
3.-The use of globes,shinn/insetp guards and a helmet with face mask.
4.-No chest (Hogu) protector.
Manny
1.-Punches and hand technikes to the head.
2.-Any kind of kicks from waist to above.
3.-The use of globes,shinn/insetp guards and a helmet with face mask.
4.-No chest (Hogu) protector.
Manny
Spartan 117
White Belt
According to the WTF rules and regulations, http://www.wtf.org/index_ver2.html art 17, there's a knock down:
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]When any part of the body other than the sole of the foot touches the floor due to the force of the opponent's delivered technique.
[FONT="] [/FONT]
2.[FONT="] [/FONT]When a contestant is staggered showing no intention or ability to pursue the match.
[FONT="] [/FONT]
3.[FONT="] [/FONT]When the referee judges that the contest cannot continue as the result of any power technique having been delivered.
And the art. 16 establishes: 1. Win by K.O. So a knockout is a valid way of ending the match, and many players like to assure victory that way.
So, that's my 0.2 cents. or 00000.2 pesos.
They both have there place withen TKD and one day I hope they will come together for the betterment of the Art and not as a seperation.
Balrog
Master of Arts
My preference is point sparring. I personally think it takes more control to throw a power technique and NOT knock your partner into the next ring.
YMMV, of course.
I definitely agree with this. I am not a TKD practioner (karate), but I fight with lots of TKD people at open tournaments. I find the ability to control one's techniques much more impressive than being able to knock someone's block off.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
There is a place for point sparring as a drill to teach novices and children how to target their attacks and not to engage in "rock 'em-sock 'em robots". And just like flag football, if you want to make a sport of it, that's an individuals choice. Continuous point sparring can be very good for training since too much heavy contact sparring is going to wear your body down before long. It also gives the people who may have health concerns, not advanced enough, or can't go into work beat up an outlet to compete.
OTOH, to say it takes more skill to "use control" in point sparring over full contact is ridiculous. Those who believe that have either fallen into a fallacy or more likely been conned by their instructor. While developing control is neccesary to work partner drills for improving your sparring ability, I really have no interest in becoming "skilled" at missing my opponent. The way you train is the way you react. If you constantly practice pulling your strikes or missing your opponent, if you ever need to defend yourself, that is what you are going to do. Perhaps if you have no interest in real self defense or fighting ability in your martial arts training and just are looking for a fun sport or workout, this might suit you, but for the majority to whom realistic self defense is at least part of why they train, this would be a real concern.
Basic point sparring develops many bad habits if it is the primary version of sparring used. As I stated earlier, it can be a good drill at certain stages of learning and can even be a decent drill to re-visit on occasion even at more advanced levels. I train my students at heavy or full contact on all pad and bag work in every class, at least as soon as they have learned a technique well enough not to hurt themselves. This way, they are constantly practicing follow through , hitting hard, and not pulling their strikes from white belt up in vritually every class. When we do one steps and sparring drills, that's when we teach people accuracy and placement, but you don't drive off the back leg (kick with one leg, not two). This way, the accuracy is there, but not the follow through. Also, since they have far more practice at driving from the back leg and follow through, this is a concious act to protect their partner rather than a conditioned response. This also allows them to gradually get over the natural tendency to not hit another person.
I have an older black belt student that despite being in her fifties, was very good at sparring with heavy contact until she had an accident that broke her back. She still does light-contact continuous sparring, but heavy contact, let alone full is out for her. I have another seventeen year old black belt who is on the blood thinner cummadin. When it comes time to spar, we fully gear her up and it's only touch contact for her because of her medical condition. So my students have the control when they want it or need it, but their natural trained response it do be able to deliver as needed. This would definitely NOT be the case if they engaged in point sparing as their primary training mode.
OTOH, to say it takes more skill to "use control" in point sparring over full contact is ridiculous. Those who believe that have either fallen into a fallacy or more likely been conned by their instructor. While developing control is neccesary to work partner drills for improving your sparring ability, I really have no interest in becoming "skilled" at missing my opponent. The way you train is the way you react. If you constantly practice pulling your strikes or missing your opponent, if you ever need to defend yourself, that is what you are going to do. Perhaps if you have no interest in real self defense or fighting ability in your martial arts training and just are looking for a fun sport or workout, this might suit you, but for the majority to whom realistic self defense is at least part of why they train, this would be a real concern.
Basic point sparring develops many bad habits if it is the primary version of sparring used. As I stated earlier, it can be a good drill at certain stages of learning and can even be a decent drill to re-visit on occasion even at more advanced levels. I train my students at heavy or full contact on all pad and bag work in every class, at least as soon as they have learned a technique well enough not to hurt themselves. This way, they are constantly practicing follow through , hitting hard, and not pulling their strikes from white belt up in vritually every class. When we do one steps and sparring drills, that's when we teach people accuracy and placement, but you don't drive off the back leg (kick with one leg, not two). This way, the accuracy is there, but not the follow through. Also, since they have far more practice at driving from the back leg and follow through, this is a concious act to protect their partner rather than a conditioned response. This also allows them to gradually get over the natural tendency to not hit another person.
I have an older black belt student that despite being in her fifties, was very good at sparring with heavy contact until she had an accident that broke her back. She still does light-contact continuous sparring, but heavy contact, let alone full is out for her. I have another seventeen year old black belt who is on the blood thinner cummadin. When it comes time to spar, we fully gear her up and it's only touch contact for her because of her medical condition. So my students have the control when they want it or need it, but their natural trained response it do be able to deliver as needed. This would definitely NOT be the case if they engaged in point sparing as their primary training mode.
Eh, to each his own.
We do light contact point sparring, so we don't "miss" our targets; we hit them lightly, with speed and focus. For power practice, we use dead things, so as to keep the live things living.
And no, I don't have any illusions about using my sparring skills for self defense; I think the self defense techniques I've learned are probably more appropriate.
Cheers!
We do light contact point sparring, so we don't "miss" our targets; we hit them lightly, with speed and focus. For power practice, we use dead things, so as to keep the live things living.
And no, I don't have any illusions about using my sparring skills for self defense; I think the self defense techniques I've learned are probably more appropriate.
Cheers!
I'm going to politely disagree with you both here.
This is not an either/or scenario, but two entirely different things that are developed in different ways.
The first is ability to offer a graded response, a practical skill with applications both in tourney and out. This is not a difficult skill to develop, inspite of appearances to the contrary. Essentially, controling a power technique amounts to pulling your punches or pulling your kicks.
In tournament, I won't kick an opponent's face full force. A) I don't need to and B) I don't generally kick above waist level in SD. There are lots of less than full force attacks in tournament sparring. Some are feints, some are meant only to set up an opponent, and some are done to score without using extra energy.
The second is developing full power with accuracy, enough to "knock someone's block off" if you will. This is much harder to do than to be accurate with less power. The ability to deliver a full power kick without unballancing yourself and without hitting off target is very difficult and one of the reasons that time to blackbelt is measured in years.
In WTF style sparring, the participants wear hogu, headgear, shin, foot, and arm pads and gloves. Aside from the face, there is no legal target that doesn't have a ton of padding on it, nor is there any target that is being struck by an unpadded appendage. There is no reason to hold up lighter contact in this style as being anything to strive for.
If you prefer point fighting, there is nothing wrong with that. Because of the way that the rules of point fighting are set up, it has its own set of strategies and norms, all of which must be mastered in order to be competative.
But don't mistake fine motor control skill as being more difficult to develope than real time full power strikes that are effective full contact tourney or SD usage.
Daniel
Just wanted to make the point that MMA doesn't allow strikes of any kind to the back of the head as they are considered too dangerous. It seems odd to allow kicks to the back of the head but not punches to the head.
Power, focus, and control are all necessary for sparring - that is the difference, IMHO, between sparring and brawling. Whether you demonstrate power, focus, and control in point or continuous sparring is considerably less relevant to me than whether you can demonstrate power, focus, and control appropriate to the situation in which you are in.
I don't think that safety has anything to do with it. Kicks to the head encourages high kicking, which is what the big Taekwondo orgs, WTF/Kukkiwon in particular, seem to be wanting people to see.
Daniel
Keeping the "game" as a "jury sport" as a favourite dutch/french world champion/national coach of mine calls sparring, is always going to enable you to "game the game". Competition specific techniques will be thrown, ringcraft will be used, it will remain a game of appearances.
The instep guard is not mandatory so you could put your foot on their face; and even with the instep guard, you could still get an unpadded heel to their face with a nice axe kick.
That was changed last year.
I agree, martial arts is about FIGHTING. if theres people that want to wave arounds sticks in the 21st century and do dances moves instead of fight, than dont do martial arts!!
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