friggin Se Jong

[StuartA]

Stuart, I just started this thread to vent about how much i hate this form. you guys can chat about anything you want to, i LOVE thread drift, in fact i cause it all the time, like this:

Well, in that case...

The initial dip of the knees facilitates a more subtle motion which, in my experience, allows you to shift the body with less likelihood of forming a saw-toothed wave.

Not in my opinion, but we are of course allowed different views

I didn't say it was a small typo but the encyclopedia is a huge work. There are several editorial errors in it that continued through many editions (and new errors crop up with new editions!). This update could be another example of that.

Its a massive omission.. nothing short of it! The smaller omissions I see as errors, but the newer sine wave is such a bedrock of the ITF's that its almost unthinkable not to update it within 20 years and many many reprints!

Your assertion here about politics is only partially true. When GM Park, Jung Tae left/got kicked out of the ITF the General made a concerted effort to emphasize the initial downward motion of sine wave. But others have pointed out that this relaxing of the knees was present before, albeit not as emphasized. It's part of the idea of keeping the body relaxed until the end of a movement.

Why then was it not taught by the No.1 technical man in charge of this part of the ITF! It may have been seen before, but this could have been entirely by accident.. Gen Choi was very forthright in his views, so IMO, if he felt it was the way forward he would have made a concerted effort to make it that way - in fact he would have told Master park to teach it that way I believe!

1) This is debatable to say the least - personally I generate much more power with the initial dip than without it

Very debatable indeed - nothing I have ever seesn says this, so its simply your feeling.. even ITF-V's scientific tests at a university didnt reveal this, lesser scientific tests have reveal the opposite however! By lesser, i simply mean under less control conditions.

2) irrelevant because both forms of sine wave are primarily used as teaching devices to show students how to shift body mass in order to get maximum power from their techniques; any form of sine wave is going to be quite abbreviated when one is sparring sparring, training in self-defense, etc..

Not really - one can be utilized quite quickly, making it applicable to SD.. one cannot however!

3) This last statement is, to put it frankly, absurd to say nothing of disrespectful.

As i said prevously, "Gullible" was a wrong term. What i meant to say is that a) students dont have a choice and b) pointing out so and so teaches it is irrelevant if they came under Gen Choi, as Gen choi was the first and last word on the subject. more to the point is those that DON'T teach it.. and why! including some no longer in the ITF who were top students/pioneers. Now I know some are due to timelines, but others are due to not beliveing in it. I spoke personally to Master Willy Lim who says he was the man who Gen Choi tested the sine-wave on initally and he doesnt rate it at all!

It's your attitude demonstrated here that makes me dislike posting in the same threads as you to say nothing of even answering your posts.

I dont have an attitude, a few misplaced words was all.. besides, you said in your fist sentence how you enjoyed it! More to the point, I do apologise for comming across in that way, it is not my intention. I can be strong in my views, but I do respect others opinions, such as yours, also.

You do some very good things for Taekwon-Do and then post stuff like this which just doesn't do yourself justice.

Sometimes the truth is justice enough!

As I said before, there are other editorial errors in the encyclopedia still.

As I said, if it were something minor then i could accept that, but its not, its a glaring omission that could ahve been corrected with 1 photo and perhaps 1 line of text - it wasnt and thus this speaks volumes!

There are things that are not covered or only given cursory treatment in the encyclopedia. Your view of the book seems to be - from other posts on kidokwan - that it contains everything and this is simply not the case.

I view the book as the way Gen Choi felt things should be, hence why he wrote it. Latter things could easily be contributed to external influences.. the boomremains his bed rock however.

It's a great guide, but not the final word. If you want some media treatment of sine wave covering the initial dip there are several official DVD's out there that do so.

Not by General Choi!! Even the video master Weiss posted of the clp from th legacy CD doesnt show it!!!

Heck, you've seen the video of Gen. Choi doing so.

yes

Despite this you still can't accept how things are.

Its a video of a latter stage, we already know he changed it.... its the reason for the change and its effects that concern me. the video simply shows him supporting that changes.. it doesnt show or say why it occured or what the benefits are! Again, it goes to the Generals word being final and binding.. that doesnt make it correct!

There's a big debate over who actually owns that stuff now.

But still reprinst over the last 20 years have been done!!

There have been DVD's produced such as Master Choi's Master Class DVD that shows sine wave with the initial downwards motion.

Goes back to the final ways of Gen Choi.. as I said, it doesnt explain anything, it just copies what Gen choi wanted -no why he wanted them. for all you know the NK's could have asked him to do it just because!!!

Or you could simply go to a seminar given by, well, just about anyone in the ITF.

I have been and when I questions stuff the master taking it was suck for a response and simply said thats the way ITF do it now!

You're in the UK and are surrounded by great ITF people. Why not give GM Rhee or Master Nichols a call and get their input on this subject?

Maser nicolls follows the final version and GM Rhee was chastised by gen Choi for not doing the newer version right in 1999 and even if he does now, it doesnt mean a thing as they are simply being loyal to Gen Choi, which whilst I respect that, it doesnt make the newer sine wave right!!!

I think that would be great for an article for the next issue of Totally Taekwon-Do.

feel free to write it .. all sides, all opinions need to be represented. in fact I have already contacted Master McPhail about his "Ways of Motion" article as I feel it would be of interest to ITF'rs - that doesnt mean i agree with it personally, but the magazine is open to all.

No, this is exactly part of the issue because sometimes errors or changes are not, in fact, made in subsequent editions.

Again, you can use that reasoning if you like, but considering how uch this effects ITF'ers, I dont subscribe to a simple omission or oversight.. sorry!

That's academia for you and to a large extent that's Taekwon-Do for you. [/qoute]
Not really. Not everyone could afford or egt to study with the General, hence his books need to be accurate.. to me its that simple.

Stuart

 

[jks9199]

Thread drift...

Can be a wonderful thing as it often leads to really great discussions, especially from knowledgeable folks like Stuart and Chris. Rather than move to PMs to avoid thread drift, there's a great tool for posting a NEW THREAD. That way, we all can benefit from the discussion!

 

[Earl Weiss]

Stuart, I just started this thread to vent about how much i hate this form. you guys can chat about anything you want to, i LOVE thread drift, in fact i cause it all the time, like this:

Earl,
thanks for the videos. I wont be doing my form like that since i think sine wave looks like a drunken, mentally challenged chimp doing martial arts. IMO, Sine Wave is retarded

it generates NO power that i can see

it defeats the purpose of forms which is learning to move SMOOTHLY

and most importantly, looks stupid.

I swear it is something Choi came up with to seperate his TKD from the rest of TKD after the rest of TKD gave him the heave ho....

see Stuart? I LIVE for thread drift.

How you choose to do your forms is up to you / your instructor, vis a vis with or without sine wave. I believe your initial question focused on the turns etc. That was the purpose of the video.

Sine wave is a complex issue and I had to work on it for a good 6 months before I became accustomed to it and felt how it gets you to use your entire body, particularly your legs to generate power in hand techniques.

Ads far as any contentions about it changing goes IMNSHO it has not changed at all since 1990. What has changed is some people's understanding of it. This is due in part to who their instructors were or who their instructors learned from as well as some refinements in teaching terminology and methodologies. This is particularly true due the tthe fact that some things like motion is difficult to communicate from the printed word.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Stuart, as I said if you wish to discuss this with me any further you can take it to PM's. I will no longer answer you about this topic on the board as you are wedded to not accepting other people's input.

Pax,

Chris

 

[StuartA]

Stuart, as I said if you wish to discuss this with me any further you can take it to PM's. I will no longer answer you about this topic on the board as you are wedded to not accepting other people's input.

Pax,

Chris

Okay, but I assure you that is not the case, I welcome input and things that may change my views, but a discussion needs two sides to make it a discussion, but that doesnt mean my views can't change, just that nothing so far has chnaged them for me. I believe you are pretty much wedded to your views also however!

Stuart

 

[Earl Weiss]

Sorry, I need to clarify my earlier post about sine wave not changing since 1990. My first direct experience with it was 1990. Having reviewed the 1987 Video of Park Jung Tae IIC in 1987, I think it changed little if at all since that time as well. (It may have been relatively unchanged since an earlier time, but I have no firsthand or video evidence to establish it. )

Now, GM Park had his own ideas about certain things, and what he did was not always exactly the way General Choi showed or taught.

Since he taught so many, his methodologies are well ingrained with his progeny. . I often wondered why so many did the Stamping motion with W shape block with a leg that was almost straight. It resembled the "Goose Step" Type marching used by some militaries. You would think that stamping motion requires a bend and straightening of the knee. I also wondered why so many did a "High Punch" with side piercing kick that resembled a side fist motion instead of a punch. After watching the video of Park Jung Tae, the answer became clear.

We also need to understand th imperfect medium of the verbal and written explanation for motion. This is particularly true when the language of explanation may not be the native tongue. The term "Connecting Motion" which is quite simple to say and define, did not appear until the second edition of the encyclopedia. General Choi said it took him 20 years to come up with a term that could convey the concept he was trying to get across.

 

[exile]

Folks, here's a thought...

If an issue comes up that's really 'live', and of interest to the general membership, but diverges from the OP topic, it really does deserve a thread of its own. But if there seems to be a point where a meeting of the minds just isn't going to happen—because, say, of a fundamental difference in the assessment of what the facts mean between the two (or more) parties—something that's not going to change, because it reflects a basic difference in perspective—then probably the best thing to do is just agree to differ and let it go. Repeatedly butting heads winds up mostly causing fierce headaches. That's just a general observation—for those who don't mind endless point/counterpoint, the fora are always open for a new thread...

What we don't want is for productive discussion (even of the head-butting kind) to be taken off-line. This is the not-so-sub subtext of §1.4

1.4 Soliciting Outside Contact:

Members may not post to instruct users to check their e-mail, check their PM, or inform them that they've got mail or a new PM, or any variant thereof. Please don't post a message saying, "I need information about whatever. Please e-mail me at [email protected]." Asking people to answer your questions via e-mail defeats this purpose of public discourse.


Members may not invite other members to contact them to find out more information, rather than post it in the forum.

The same principle governs the use of the PM system. So if the discussion is to go on, then it should go on a public forum, and if it's a bit off-topic, fine—it can have its own thread. Otherwise, it probably isn't going to go anywhere and it would be more useful for all sides to agree that it's just one of those things.