Forms

[Oily Dragon]

Ha! Working toward it daily

"Ask me about my mind".

Those zany JKD dudes...

Every Martial Art invites a weird friend. Sensei Seth video that had me cracking up and groaning.

Could have posted in Boxing forum, or Karate, or JKD, Aikido, TKD, Bartitsu, Aikido, etc. Basically martial arts roasting good for a chuckle or at lease a real grin. Regards Brian

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Thunder Foot]

"I do not hit. It hits all by itself".

Sure.

What I said about "no form" really being 1 form, but really infinite forms, is so Daoist, "I" can't contain it.

lol, love that! I was taking stance against your "accumulation of forms until infinity" point tho. That actually does not follow the principle of Do/Dao.

 

[Oily Dragon]

lol, love that! I was taking stance against your "accumulation of forms until infinity" point tho. Thats actually not Daoist.

Well, it can be, if infinity and one are considered to be the same. That's the essence of the Taiji, and the circle.

Some people scoop up a lot of techniques, and have to figure out how to mix it all together, and yet somehow recall, when teaching others, that they are the interplay between two extremes. A Triune.

Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.

My Taijiquan Shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh...... "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"

 

[Thunder Foot]

Well, it can be, if infinity and one are considered to be the same. That's the essence of the Taiji, and the circle.

Some people scoop up a lot of techniques, and have to figure out how to mix it all together, and yet somehow recall, when teaching others, that they are the interplay between two extremes.

Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.

I see you with the inverse analogy there. You're right, that is a point to be made. If 1 human being had the capacity to actually scoop up all the techniques in 1 lifetime maybe. Even still, I think that person will still go through the same stage of refinement/reduction, so ending in the same place. The two extremes are illusionary because they are made of the same stuff.

 

[Oily Dragon]

My Taijiquan Shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh...... "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"

It's interesting how different styles tackle Daoism. They are codified differently depending on who you leaned them from, but the general idea is still there.

The Iron Wire is a great example of the concept. It's like a Goldilocks fist set. Dynamic tension matters, but balance too.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I see you with the inverse analogy there. You're right, that is a point to be made. If 1 human being had the capacity to actually scoop up all the techniques in 1 lifetime maybe. Even still, I think that person will still go through the same stage of refinement/reduction, so ending in the same place. The two extremes are illusionary because they are made of the same stuff.

Yeah and with JKD you have a great core to start from to all that underlying experience, rather than throwing darts.

Throwing darts in the CMA is super fun, but time consuming and expensive...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Back to JKD and forms and such.... back when I trained JKD, the first time, I ended up with my own view of that the "Classical mess" was, that Bruce Lee spoke of...with a little help from Novell Bell, and Dennis Rovere, as it applied to Xingyiquan. In xingyiquan we were so hung up on the form and the stance and getting it all correct, all the while forgetting it is for fighting and fights do not go piquan, zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan bengquan. I also am one of those guys that likes the Bruce Lee quote "Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back."

Basically my short stint in JKD taught me one heck of a lot about XIgyiquan, and if my knees, and hip, would allow it I'd go back and train more JKD. Although I'm not sure my eye doctor would like the idea.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Yeah and with JKD you have a great core to start from to all that underlying experience, rather than throwing darts.

Throwing darts in the CMA is super fun, but time consuming and expensive...

Why did I automatically think you were talking about biu jeeand the actual throwing darts
, lol. CMA is extremely expensive for quality teaching, definitely.

 

[Yanli]

There is so much maintenance and upkeep.
I currently only practice Wing Chun/JKD, Modern Arnis, and BJJ

Its so much time and effort practicing something you hope never happens

Never see it as practicing for something that you hope never happens, see it as practicing for the enjoyment of the skills you are gaining.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"

The only issue is the "internal" Taiji people may think to "push" people away is more important that to throw their people down.

A: Why "shin bite" is not part of the Taiji PH training?
B: Because it's against the Taiji principle "relaxation".
A: ...

 

[Xue Sheng]

The only issue is the "internal" Taiji people may think to "push" people away is more important that throw their people down.

A: Why "shin bite" is not part of the Taiji PH training?
B: Because it's against the Taiji principle "relaxation".
A: ...

Not in my experience with Taijiquan, lots of qinna and Shuaijiao in taijiquan. As a matter of fact Tung Ying Chieh was a big fan of qinna. Also no emphasis on "push" from Chen Zhenglei either. And lastly not a big thing from the people I have trained with that come from William CC Chen. So I will just say, I don't know where you get that from, unless it is Taiwan, but emphasis on push is not in my experience with taijiquan. And if you study the 13 postures, you would see it is not

Edit: However I should add, that my experience is likely not in the norm of Taijiquan these days. These days most doing taiji are doing it for health and the taiji dance

 

[Oily Dragon]

Why did I automatically think you were talking about biu jeeand the actual throwing darts

Cheung Kiu. The final inch bridge.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not in my experience with Taijiquan, lots of qinna and Shuaijiao in taijiquan. As a matter of fact Tung Ying Chieh was a big fan of qinna. Also no emphasis on "push" from Chen Zhenglei either. And lastly not a big thing from the people I have trained with that come from William CC Chen. So I will just say, I don't know where you get that from, unless it is Taiwan, but emphasis on push is not in my experience with taijiquan. And if you study the 13 postures, you would see it is not

Edit: However I should add, that my experience is likely not in the norm of Taijiquan these days. These days most doing taiji are doing it for health and the taiji dance

In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".

 

[Xue Sheng]

In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".

but that is one clip, not even a good statistical sample. But even with this clip, if you know what you're looking at, it is not all push. First are versions of pull (Cai) the first push does not appear until about 50 seconds in, and push continues until about 1:30. The shoulder strike (Cao) then push again. Also you are using a short clip of push hands, which is a drill, not a confrontation, that is stationary, also not a good example. There are multiple drills in Traditional Yang Taijiquan for various types of push hands, 3 step, 4 corner, 1 step, etc, and then there is free style.
But with that said a push with fajin can do quite a bit to know someone on the ground. The idea of taijiquan and its proper usage is not to muscle your way over your opponent, it is to use his force against him

All I can say is it is not my experience in 30 years of Taijiquan.

Add to this

Like I said, 13 postures, study them, and you will see it is more than push

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".

I would be surprised to see leg techinques much in a drill called "push hands". I train fair bit of leg technique, and also use a similar push hands drill for training specific kinds of control. You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around. And students aren't allowed to monkey around in this drill. That's reserved for the instructor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would be surprised to see leg techinques much in a drill called "push hands". I train fair bit of leg technique, and also use a similar push hands drill for training specific kinds of control. You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around. And students aren't allowed to monkey around in this drill. That's reserved for the instructor.

Some versions of Chen style have them, trained a bit of that once. But mostly knee against knee to uproot. But there are leg sweeps in Traditional Yang

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around.

Here you may assume that the leg skill is less important than the hand skill.

I won't say which one is more important than the other. In Taiji PH range, you can use hand to pull your opponent's leg. You can also use leg to pull your opponent's leg. You don't need any extra footwork to achieve this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here you may assume that the leg skill is less important than the hand skill.

I won't say which one is more important than the other. In Taiji PH range, you can use hand to pull your opponent's leg. You can also use leg to pull your opponent's leg. You don't need any extra footwork to achieve this.

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I find both useful. I just don’t have or know many drills that involve both.

 

[isshinryuronin]

we were so hung up on the form and the stance and getting it all correct, all the whisnile forgetting it is for fighting and fights

True. In the not too distant past, I was a stickler for my students (and myself) having just the right hand placement and stance. Afterall, isn't one of MA's goals mastery over body control?

"The back foot should be angled at 40 degrees. The elbow should be at a 90 degree angle. The feet should be shoulder distance apart with the front one 2 inches ahead of the toe-heel line." I'm sure we've all heard such things many times as students.

Body position is important, at least insofar as positioning affects one's techniques, fighting posture and balance. But this can be taken too far, to the point where "good form" is stressed merely for form's sake, unrelated to combat effectiveness. Plus, body proportion differs among individuals, and the "correct" stance for one may not be ideal for another.

Looking at the earliest videos of Okinawan masters (perhaps Chinese as well? I'm not qualified to judge) it can be seen that they were not anal about exact positioning. As I've mentioned a couple of times, they would not fare well in kata competition.

Their kata seem informal, even "sloppy" by today's TMA performance standards, with little posing, pomp and circumstance. Nevertheless, their skill is still evident. While kiai is often strenuously vocalized nowadays, it is often lacking in the older, traditional masters. If they do kiai, it is done (sometimes just internally) as they feel the need, not necessarily at a mandated point. That's because they did not learn MA as a sport or performance art. If you do, that's OK, as long as you know where you are in the MA scheme of things.

Perhaps for beginners, following strict doctrine is reasonable. But after a couple of years they should be given more leash to find their own comfort zone as they eventually realize that many minute details do not really matter (though some do!) and concentrate on surviving a fight.