Forms

[Oily Dragon]

I kinda wish I had kept a bit of the taiji, but honestly I didn’t feel like I understood the foundation properly and I didn’t want to just make my taiji into a variant of my white crane.

You should have.

Water element, wood, crane, and snake go well together.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This form? It looks like a WC form to me.

Someone said, "The Ung Moon form was created by no other than Dan Inosanto as far as I know. NOT Bruce Lee."

It's a mix of southern Chinese forms.

When we talk about Wing Chun, we need to talk about southern China.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well thats your perspective and your entitled to it.

Unfortunately since you can't seem to understand mine maybe try not commenting on the threads I create since we seem to "miscommunicate"

1) You cannot tell anyone on this site where they can comment.
2) I do understand you.
3) We are more alike than you would like to admit, as I just reflected or mirrored you and added some analytics

Peace be with you.

 

[Buka]

Just out of curiosity...
which forms if any were you taught or do you teach?

None.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.

Not if your screen is in good repair. That'll stop the butterfly. Nothing seems to stop the mosquito though. Just have to swat or spray them.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Nothing seems to stop the mosquito though. Just have to swat or spray them.

Smoke works. It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.

Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really.

In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense. They mostly come at night. Mostly.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Smoke works. It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.

Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really.

In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense. They mostly come at night. Mostly.

I go with huge amounts of DEET. I was nearly killed by a mosquito so I get aggressive.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Smoke works. It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.

Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really.

In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense. They mostly come at night. Mostly.

Mostly…lol.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I go with huge amounts of DEET. I was nearly killed by a mosquito so I get aggressive.

I hear that. Mosquito illnesses are no joke.

A friend of mine just returned to the US from Central America. She caught Dengue Fever there, but she's doing ok.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I hear that. Mosquito illnesses are no joke.

A friend of mine just returned to the US from Central America. She caught Dengue Fever there, but she's doing ok.

That's what got me. Sepsis and a GI bleed. The name "break bone fever" is very apt.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Not only never taught a form in JKD, never even heard of a form in JKD...from 3 different teachers, 2 of whom trained with first generation JKD teachers.

A standardized form goes against everything Bruce Lee ever said or wrote as it applies to JKD

Hey Xue,
This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Xue,
This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.

Hey Thunder Foot, been awhile...how are you?

I never heard about a form in JKD, but like I said, my JKD training was brief, with 3 different teachers, but still brief.

Was it called JKD at that time or was he still calling it Jun Fan?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Consider this.

The Dao of Jeet Kuen Do was not authored by Bruce, it was edited and organized and published posthumously from his notes, by his students and wife. So most people alive who didn't train with him directly are kind of stuck with this posthumous text (which is more philosophy than anything), unless they can find a good legit teacher (which is not easy, a lot of these great teachers do not run schools).

And Bruce never really gave up on Chinese styles he had developed. If you've trained Wing Chun or Jun Fan, you probably recognize that he was trying to make sure that whatever he taught/you learned, it actually works. And in the movies like Enter the Dragon, kung Fu has to look functional. And he made it work, like many of his predecessors, through hard training.

Dan Inosanto knows more forms than most people alive, and he still teaches many. IF JKD was really "the one", he wouldn't teach the rest. So when Bruce told him keep what works, throw out what doesn't etc...makes you wonder what got thrown out. Not a lot, based on what is still found in a decent JKD school.

Philosophically (from his own notes) this is what Bruce meant by having no form, your forms grow to infinity as you unlock your personal potential. For me personally, that did happen somewhere around my middle years when I'd learned a bunch of styles and recognized what they had in common...core athletic principles, agility, timing, resistance, and so on.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Hey Thunder Foot, been awhile...how are you?

I never heard about a form in JKD, but like I said, my JKD training was brief, with 3 different teachers, but still brief.

Was it called JKD at that time or was he still calling it Jun Fan?

I'm good, thanks. A google query on enlightenment brought me here of all things Lol. Hope you've been well.
As for the form, it was both before and after. Jesse trained at a time before Bruce coined the term... Howard, after he coined the term. But in both cases, they both recognized that they were practicing the same principles at different levels of refinement. Even the Ng Mun form itself looks to eliminate passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC), which is at the core of interception.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Hey Xue,
This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.

It's a guess, as I was also never shown a "Ng Mun" form, but Hung Ga has "Sei Mun" (4 Gates), which basically covers 4 directions of attack/defense.

It's beginner stuff but very important to quite a few styles, and especially important for san da training. The gates/bridges system is found all over, you need to learn those principles in some form.

Dare I ask, is there video somewhere of Ng Mun or is that the unicorn? If Ng Mun does mean "5 Gates", there's got to be a list somewhere...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm good, thanks. A google query on enlightenment brought me here of all things Lol. Hope you've been well.
As for the form, it was both before and after. Jesse trained at a time before Bruce coined the term... Howard, after he coined the term. But in both cases, they both recognized that they were practicing the same principles at different levels of refinement. Even the Ng Mun form itself looks to eliminate passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC), which is at the core of interception.

Makes since, due to Bruce Lee's Wing Chun background, I just never heard of it, thanks, now I know. Also based on the little exposure to Jun Fan I had (where I labeled it WIng Chun on Steroids.. I liked it..a lot by the way) the elimination of passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC) makes sense.

The big question is.....have you achieve enlightenment

 

[Thunder Foot]

It's a guess, as I was also never shown a "Ng Mun" form, but Hung Ga has "Sei Mun" (4 Gates), which basically covers 4 directions of attack/defense.

It's beginner stuff but very important to quite a few styles, and especially important for san da training. The gates/bridges system is found all over, you need to learn those principles in some form.

Dare I ask, is there video somewhere of Ng Mun or is that the unicorn? If Ng Mun does mean "5 Gates", there's got to be a list somewhere...

There are several videos online of the form. None of Bruce himself doing the form as he tended to showcase those forms that were visually impressive to land his roles. But yes, the form does mean 5 gates and its (edit: PRINCIPLES) borrowed from WC. Other styles refer to them differently, but since WC is primarily CQC, the gates refer to 2upper, 2lower, and 1base. I also learned the same in WC, validating the origin, though different Sifu interpretations may vary. Some say 4, some 6, some 6 + in or out for 12. etc etc.

Philosophically (from his own notes) this is what Bruce meant by having no form, your forms grow to infinity as you unlock your personal potential. For me personally, that did happen somewhere around my middle years when I'd learned a bunch of styles and recognized what they had in common...core athletic principles, agility, timing, resistance, and so on.

This is an interesting take, and I respect it... but my experience has been quite the opposite to this description. May be a topic for another thread but having "No Form" from my vantage point, stems from Daoist/Do-ist philosophy as we know and means to reduce/refine ourselves in various ways, but moreso to reduce our movements in specific relation to physical. Once we have reached a proficient base level, reducing preparatory movement, reducing recovery movements, reducing variety of reflexive responses to causes, reducing labels and distinction between techniques, all are examples of being in sync with Dao/Do. In a tangible example to help explain, understanding that the only true characteristic difference between a hook and an upper is degree of tilt. So these techs are thus situational and circumstantially inferred by the target/opponent, therefore everything from hook to upper and every degree of angle in between is essentially the same. So "I" don't need to concern myself with right or wrong tech selection, or hook or upper labels, or different interpretations of the two techs from various styles etc. etc.... but rather just respond to a given cause when it presents itself. We have to train to be present in the moment to do this effectively. And that may be simplifying some things a bit, but it is the jist.

It's the 'Do' in JKD and actively maintains the principle of Do/Daoism. Those who study Do/Daoism will find the principle is also analogous to other tenets of Doism, like "mo-sam" or the mind of no mind, "mo wai" or the action of no-action. etc. etc. Quite fitting for the way of no-way, or the style of no-style, or form of no-form in my opinion. Unfortunately not enough of us are intrigued enough to investigate Do/Daoism that the style is based on, and are instead scared off from the possibility of dogmatic religious doctrine.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Makes since, due to Bruce Lee's Wing Chun background, I just never heard of it, thanks, now I know. Also based on the little exposure to Jun Fan I had (where I labeled it WIng Chun on Steroids.. I liked it..a lot by the way) the elimination of passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC) makes sense.

The big question is.....have you achieve enlightenment

Ha! Working toward it daily

 

[Oily Dragon]

So "I" don't need to concern myself with right or wrong tech selection, or hook or upper labels, or different interpretations of the two techs from various styles etc. etc.... but rather just respond to a given cause when it presents itself.

"I do not hit. It hits all by itself".

Sure.

It's the 'Do' in JKD and actively maintains the principle of Do/Daoism. Those who study Do/Daoism will find the principle is also analogous to other tenets of Doism, like "mo-sam" or the mind of no mind, "mo wai" or the action of no-action. etc. etc. Quite fitting for the way of no-way, or the style of no-style, or form of no-form in my opinion. Unfortunately not enough of us are intrigued enough to investigate Do/Daoism that the style is based on, and are instead scared off from the possibility of dogmatic religious doctrine.

What I said about "no form" really being 1 form, but really infinite forms, is so Daoist, "I" can't contain it.