Forms from Different Systems/Styles worth knowing?

[ilhe4e12345]

Hey everyone, i jsut thought of something and thought i would run it by you guys here on the forums. I was talking with a few of my martial arts buddies on lunch and one of them has been studying Pal Mei kung fu for about 5 or 6 years now at the following school: http://www.pakmeinyc.net/

I havent heard too much about the style, otehr then i know its a similar style to Wing Chun in that its more of a close range style with little kicks and many hand movements/control. I saw a few videos and my friend showed me one form called "Jik Bo Kuen" or Straight Stepping Form. Its the first form they learn in their school style and its so simple, if you havent seen it i suggest looking it up on youtube, there are many good videos of it out there. Anyways my friends and i were talking and i have done a little reading (just what i could at my desk when i wasnt busy at work) and the style is really interesting...and honestly i like what i have seen from it. What my question is for you all here is, is it something that i could maybe learn a form or two and the basics (from a real teacher, not my friend he isnt a teacher level yet ) and add to my current and already growing knowledge of kung fu?

I know its always better to "master" one style and not undertake like 35238672372389 different styles at once as it would get confusing, but adding other principles to your current knowledge is never bad especially if you DONT mix them up with what you already know right? Unless you all think im being stupid....lol if thats the case you can say it, as i am always open to constructive words of advice, just dont yell

4 years of 7 Star Praying Mantis (currently and loving every second of it)
Si Lum Tao form in WC
5 Elements in Hsing-I

thats what i know so far, my teacher taught me the hsing-i forms and WC while i was recovering from a back injury in which i cant do much "jumping" movements. I understand the differences between each style and what they are tryingt o accomplish with each, i just wanted to know what others out there thought about learning different forms from different styles along with their current.

Thanks for the advice and happy training

 

[clfsean]

Well... as long as you know you're not really going to get much out of it, go for it.

I've learned forms from several different & disparate styles of CMAs during my years of CMA training. However, I only claim to teach what I teach because that's what I know. I don't claim to know much more about those styles, except those sets. Even those aren't done "right" because I don't practice those styles. I just know a bunch of hands & feet from them.

Bak Mei is very cool though. Very cool indeed.

 

[WC_lun]

Forms are used as a tool to reinforce certain things about the system it belongs too. Without learning the system itself, you aren't going to really learn much. You won't have the proper context.

 

[jks9199]

Forms are used as a tool to reinforce certain things about the system it belongs too. Without learning the system itself, you aren't going to really learn much. You won't have the proper context.

Sometimes...

But you also might find that a form or other exercise out of a different style can give you more insight into your own, as well. The stepping form mentioned in the OP might, for example, enhance and enlighten some of the stepping from hsing yi or praying mantis. Can't say specifically, since don't train in any of the styles listed. But, for example, I have learned part of the Isshin-ryu Sanchin kata which gave me some insight and another way to practice muscle lock.

 

[Flying Crane]

It can be done, but I don't advise it. I did it for years and finally realized I was just collecting things that had nothing to do with what I really wanted to study. I jettisoned all of it. Without serious study of the system on its own merits, collecting the forms is mostly a waste of time. WC Lun is absolutely correct.

 

[seasoned]

I concur with WC_lun and Flying Crane in as much as moves without explanation of application, and principles are just moves. The under lying principles are lost to an individual without these concepts. Case in point is the kata Sanchin, where muscle lock down could be the focus, while all else the kata has to offer, is lost. Once locked down all manor of power transfer is stopped. Using this kata as an example only because it is the most misunderstood kata.

 

[punisher73]

Forms/Katas are a tricky thing and I agree with most of what has been said here already.

Forms/Katas teach you "how" to move and how to generate power in different ways. They also teach you the styles strategy to combat. They also teach you principles and concepts to apply in combat. They also teach you tactics and techniques to apply in combat. They also help give you "one corner" so you can find the other three and create based on all of the previously mentioned info.

So without understanding what the purpose of the kata in a style is for and what it teaches on all of the levels. You are only going to be mimicing the outer shell of the form/kata as filtered by your understanding of your base art. An art like, SPM or Bak Mei has a VERY particular way of moving and generating power that will be very different than other ways and unless you practice and train your body to move that way, the form is pretty much useless.

Now, as a caveat. If the two systems are very similiar in power generation methods and overall approach to combat and you are an advanced student, then you might be able to pick up a form/kata and get something out of it.

I have also seen someone incorporate a form/kata into a system and not worry about the full depth of it and only teach it to highlight a particular aspect of that form/kata to add to a student's study. For example, since it has been mentioned, Sanchin kata. Many people have included it in their system as nothing more than a dynamic tension/breathing exercise to teach to their students. They still get a good benefit from it, but they also aren't concerned with learning the deeper levels of the kata. I think this approach is ok, IF the person showing it tells the students up front why it is included and what it is being used for.

Also, some people just like doing forms for forms sake and have fun doing it. That is fine also, if you realize that you are doing the movements for movements sake and just having fun doing them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It all has already been said

Basically it is forms collection, did it myself for a while and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what it is and do not expect to be proficient at any of them.

It is possible to learn more than one system but not form one form from one system and anther form from another. Good example is Xingyiquan, what exactly were you taught and were you taught Santi Shi?

If you go to China these days and look at the government systems for teaching martial arts they also teach multiple forms form multiple systems, however none are really used for fighting, they are only forms. For the fighting bits that teach sports Sanshou.

So basically it all comes down to what you want to get out of it

 

[ilhe4e12345]

It all has already been said

Basically it is forms collection, did it myself for a while and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what it is and do not expect to be proficient at any of them.

It is possible to learn more than one system but not form one form from one system and anther form from another. Good example is Xingyiquan, what exactly were you taught and were you taught Santi Shi?

If you go to China these days and look at the government systems for teaching martial arts they also teach multiple forms form multiple systems, however none are really used for fighting, they are only forms. For the fighting bits that teach sports Sanshou.

So basically it all comes down to what you want to get out of it

i agree with everyone here and i know that by learning a form i would never be able to use anything from that form as an actual art unless i studied the art, i was just more curious on what everyone thought. i have been speaking with a Bak Mei school in NYC about it (the same school my friend currently attends) and they have been very helpful, as a matter of fact i might look at potential lessons . I love rare styles....and Bak Mei is one of the rarest in the US, so its got my interested but i will be doing much more research before i even consider something like this....

As for my curren "knowledge" of Hsing-I to answer your question i spent an entire year learning the 5 elements, the basics, interal breathing and power generation as well as Santi Shi. As a matter of fact my own personal workouts i use Santi Shi because it works my legs so well.

My teacher and i go over the 5 elements at the end of every class after we go through drills and my curren forms. When i have time left i go over what i know of Hsing-I. I have a basic knowledge of how it works, internal power vs external and understand how to use it. As for WC i have about 6 months of knowledge on that, and i only learned the first form (and i havent mastered it by any means. I like the basics of WC so i study them on my own time and have him go over them with me after class as well as explain and show me different applications of WC)

What i will be doing if i decide on Bak Mei and taking classes is that i will put my Hsing-I training on hold. I dont want to get to much on my plate and adding Bak Mei would just be a pain and i would end up messing and mixing things up. I havent decided if im going to fully go through with it yet as it would be traveling a far distance to learn and i would have to decide if it is something i want to learn. either way i do appreciate everything everyone has said here and thanks to my friend, i cant stop talking about Bak Mei.....dammit....lol this is how Mantis got me started....

 

[Flying Crane]

i agree with everyone here and i know that by learning a form i would never be able to use anything from that form as an actual art unless i studied the art, i was just more curious on what everyone thought. i have been speaking with a Bak Mei school in NYC about it (the same school my friend currently attends) and they have been very helpful, as a matter of fact i might look at potential lessons . I love rare styles....and Bak Mei is one of the rarest in the US, so its got my interested but i will be doing much more research before i even consider something like this....

As for my curren "knowledge" of Hsing-I to answer your question i spent an entire year learning the 5 elements, the basics, interal breathing and power generation as well as Santi Shi. As a matter of fact my own personal workouts i use Santi Shi because it works my legs so well.

My teacher and i go over the 5 elements at the end of every class after we go through drills and my curren forms. When i have time left i go over what i know of Hsing-I. I have a basic knowledge of how it works, internal power vs external and understand how to use it. As for WC i have about 6 months of knowledge on that, and i only learned the first form (and i havent mastered it by any means. I like the basics of WC so i study them on my own time and have him go over them with me after class as well as explain and show me different applications of WC)

What i will be doing if i decide on Bak Mei and taking classes is that i will put my Hsing-I training on hold. I dont want to get to much on my plate and adding Bak Mei would just be a pain and i would end up messing and mixing things up. I havent decided if im going to fully go through with it yet as it would be traveling a far distance to learn and i would have to decide if it is something i want to learn. either way i do appreciate everything everyone has said here and thanks to my friend, i cant stop talking about Bak Mei.....dammit....lol this is how Mantis got me started....

It is OK to take some time and experiment with different systems to figure out what is the best one for you. Once you figure that out, it is by far the best to make that the focus of your training, and discontinue the others.

It is possible to train more than one system at a time, but much much more difficult, and progress is much slower, and it is easy for them to have a negative influence on each other. Few people are able to do it well. Most people who do it BELIEVE they are doing it well, but actually are not.

spending one year on this, and six months on that, and starting another...it's pretty scattered. Make sure to really look into them on their own merits, as that is the best way to figure out the best path for you to ultimately follow.

 

[seasoned]

Great posts all. One thought as I head out the door. You will only get out of a kata what is introduced to you. If your dojo/club is sparring based, then it will be sparring techniques you will see within the kata.

If your Sensei is well taught and open minded, then close in fighting is there, plus throws. In GoJu for instance, many techniques were hidden in large open hand movements. Consider making some moves smaller and discover a whole new world..........


It's all good.

 

[East Winds]

Flying Crane has it spot on. My first 10 or so years in CMA were spent "form collecting". Yang Cheng-fu put his finger on it when he said ".......The second group (of students) consists of those who are eager for immediate results and careless of detail. Before a year is out they have already finished their study of the hand, two edged sword, broadsword and spear forms. Although they are able to imitate the outer aspects of the form, in reality they are ignorant of its inner aspects........we find that every single posture requires correcting and moreover the corrections made in the morning are already forgotten by evening" Whilst I enjoyed the different forms I "learned" in reality I got nothing from them martially and I wasted a great deal of time and money before I settled on my final choice of CMA which I have studied (and am still discovering!!!!!) after 22 years.

Very best wishes

 

[jks9199]

I'll still say that there can be benefits from learning a form from a different style -- even if it's just a knew look at your own principles as they fit that form. It can also be a "taste" of another style. It's not something you should practice much, and of course you're not going to learn everything the way you would if you trained that style -- but it's not an automatic waste of time, either. Think of it as learning a phrase or two in a foreign language...

 

[WC_lun]

I have to agree with learning forms from a different style being like learning a phrase or two of a different language. However, in my opinion, it is like learning the phrases without learning what those phrases actually mean. The phrases might sound cool, might sound the same to a non-native, and even impress people, but if you mean to ask the native speaker where the bathroom is located and instead ask him why he smells like a bathroom, it kinda loses its' value.

Don't get me wrong, I think we can all appreciate the way others do things. Perhaps a different style's form will even pique your interest enough to train in it. However, what we see in different forms comes from our own experience and training. Form collecting is almost useless for martial training. If they are viewed as performance art though, I can see where learning many forms would be a great thing.