Kung fu without forms

[Flying Crane]

Yes, get a good instructor. That is time well spent.n do not try to do this on your own.

 

[kuniggety]

Get a teacher before building your own martial art. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. Why reinvent the wheel when you can stand on the shoulders of giants? Learn from those before you and then take the art further.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Get a teacher before building your own martial art.

Confucius said, "He who learns but does not think, is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger."

 

[tshadowchaser]

I will be honest. I don't study a particular martial art in lessons or anything but have been spending the past 3 years creating my own. It started off crude, if that's the right word. Then I began fine tuning it to increase efficiency, precision, power and adaptability. I have created a few really basic forms, (not based on brute force but precision) and I'm just wondering if I should carry on with forms or not. The idea of this is not just pure self-defense but also self control, patience and adaptability (to mental pressure). I'm 14 at the moment and plan on fine tuning it for quite a while. So far I have not had to use this as defence but to improve every day life. It's worked! But unfortunately my knowledge is limited to only what I know. Which is why I came up with this thread to observe how forms are used in martial arts.

I will echo what the others have said about getting an instructor. I know how ever that some people can not afford to attend classes. If this is the case see if a local instructor will allow you to study in exchange for you doing the cleaning of the studio or other tasks.
AS for studying on your own stick to the most basic of kicks and punches, simulate a couple leg sweeps and work on these things for a year. You have said you already have a couple forms. I hope they are simple and short. Work them for the next year see if you find any other use for the moves you have put together.
BUT AS HAS BEEN SAID IF YOU CAN GET WITH AN INSTRUCTOR YOU WILL LEARN SO MUCH MORE

 

[senseidave2005]

I notice your last post was jan 14th 2015, this Ironically was the ten year anniversary date of taking over the dojo/Studio I now own from my Master instructor.... I decided ar 17 or 18 that I wanted to to teach martial arts for a living and it was a long road getting to it. An expensive education. Both in Martial arts and business. At first I couldnt understand why the forms and Kata were so important, now I'm still trying to figure alot of things out after 25 years in the martial arts. One thing I have found is form and function go together hand in hand. If you have no idea what a move in a form is for how can you expect it to work... As many of us learn from the lessons the great teachers left behind for us we get to a point where we need to know why wecare doing what we are doing. The form will not or should not change, however the function can as long as we are prepared to think outside the box. I try to explain to the students at the dojo how the same lesson can look different the next time arond...
Example. I teach you slide step to the left, downward right front punch, left pressing palm to your opponents shoulder.... simple. Now 6 months go by and I show you the same 2 -3 moves this time your attacked with a 1-2 combo so the palm shoulder becomes a block rather than press... my point is know the why not just the what ofvthe form then the when becomes easier... Your fight on your terms on your turf when your ready. Good luck... hope you found a teacher.

 

[hoshin1600]

there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.

The form training is just like the partner training without partner. If the "stand up grappling" can have forms, the "ground grappling" can also have forms. The reason is simple, we won't have training partner 24/7. Any solo training is better than nothing. The solo training may not help you to develop any new skill, it can help you to "polish" your skill that you have already developed.

 

[quynn75]

Forms are the basic exercise for muscle memory and - - , you have to practice the forms many YEARS to get the fruits! I´ve been in China and they train in the way that they just pick one form and train it years and years! To make all the movements and drills exact and precise, to correct the postures... forms will give you the idea of how to coordinate the whole body when doing the kicks/punches. And in the beginning, they are much more fun than just drills. And, yes.. historically they are like a book. But I think they´re really important when you practice them correctly! And with surveillance of someone who has A LOT OF experience. (IMPORTANT!) - having chinese master is the best!
And last but not least, kung fu forms are BEAUTIFUL!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Forms are required in Kung Fu. I wouldn't train under a Kung Fu Sifu if they didn't have forms. The purpose of the forms is to teach you how to correctly do the technique. Forms make the movement natural which means you don't have to think about doing it when you apply it. You can't realistically use Kung Fu in a fight without understanding the form and your body and brain being able to do the movement without hesitation or thinking. It has to be as natural as blinking your eyes.

I train in Jow Ga Kung Fu and all of my forms will work against MMA fighters, judo fighters. The first form we have is made of 4 parts, but in a real fight or competition I can break the practice form (made of 4 parts) and mix them 15 or more combinations using the same movements. I understand that those 4 movements in the form and can break it apart to fit the situation that I'm in. We have a training day where we specifically break forms with the goal of being able to use a technique from any starting point or alter it from counter punching to kicking. That's the only way you can truly learn how to use a Kung Fu style, but you can't even do that until you learn the proper form.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.

BJJ solo drills:

 

[marques]

I think quite like you. But this is because we never understood 'forms'.
The best explanation I had, or the way I better understood, is that it is a kind of body preparation. Balance, muscles, coordination... Then learn to fight will be much easier and powerfull...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Question: whats a drill? A training exercise that can be a repetition of a single move or multiple moves.

OK, now what's a form...... think about that for a while..... to me it is an old way of saying drill

 

[Argus]

I think quite like you. But this is because we never understood 'forms'.
The best explanation I had, or the way I better understood, is that it is a kind of body preparation. Balance, muscles, coordination... Then learn to fight will be much easier and powerfull...

Forms explore all kinds of territory. To attribute just a few physical attributes to a form, I think, is to miss a great deal.

It all depends on the art though, of course. Different arts practice forms for different reasons, and explore different aspects of the system in their forms. Wing Chun, for example, has particularly straight forward, though abstract forms. The forms explore basic structure, the "alphabet" of the System in terms of hand and body movement, but it also explores and reinforces core principles of the system such as centerline theory and forward energy. The different forms have different purposes as well: Siu Nim Tao is static and abstract, focusing more on the core concepts and "alphabet" of the system, seeking to establish a solid foundation. Chum Kiu puts that foundation in motion, and teaches one how to move dynamically while maintaining that structure, and introduces context for some of the hand motions. Biu Tze looks at more out of the ordinary applications and contains ideas about how to recover from, or simply cope with disadvantageous situations. That's all just an over simplication, of course, and you can dig quite deeply into any one of the forms. There are all kinds of ideas, principles, and contexts to explore. And I'll wager it's the same for every art -- it's just that some practitioners have lost sight of what's been handed down to them over time.

As for personal development, I also find it quite useful to practice form even when I'm not practicing forms. I spend a lot of time practicing in the air, attempting to habitualize good structure, foot-work, and body mechanics, and all the while piecing together movements and concepts from the forms and thinking about what kind of positions I can use them in, or how I might need to recover or where I may need to flow to from there. So, through form work, whether it's practicing forms, or just practicing form in a freely, you can focus or broaden your training. You might notice a particular deficiency in one of your techniques, or in your stance. Go back to your forms and look at what you're doing. Are you shifting your weight correctly, or in a way that creates a deficiency? Are you practicing your hand techniques correctly? Where might you tweak them to remedy your symptoms? You can use it to explore flow, and recovery. What actions do you find, in your free training, hard to deal with? What positions do you have a hard time recovering from? Imagine that position. Imagine your opponent, and consider his and your options in those circumstances, and consider how you might flow to a different position; what solutions you might try, and how the situation might unfold in a productive, or dangerous way. That process of thinking through an exchange will enhance your ability to flow and provide solutions that you can experiment with.

Visualization and deliberate practice are powerful. Closely examining, and consciously redefining your habits is essential. That's what forms are about: looking at the system, looking at yourself, and examining both of them. Forms are where you consciously and deliberately examine, reform, and refine your habits whilst also exploring associated connections and principles. If you're not doing that, and you're just going through the motions, you're robbing yourself of their benefit.

If an unexamined life is not worth living, an unexamined form is not worth practicing. What you should question is not the value of the form itself, but how you approach your practice.

 

[greytowhite]

My first teacher started off doing the Yang taiji form but his teacher for it was only able to give him the health benefits not the martial art. Then he went searching for something martially applicable. He first went to Jake Mace's school but found it to be utter ********. Then he went to Ip Man lineage wing chun school. He got some good knowledge there but was still seeking something. Then he met Chen Xiaowang at an expo and everything from there changed for him. He quickly went through and added the laojia yilu and erlu, xinjia yilu and erlu to his form collection. However when he went to teach he gave me these words, "Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself." So at first he only taught me eight stances, their transitions and applications from the Chen form. The silk reeling with various stepping methods was our focus for a long time to make sure I could practice something that was worth my time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My first teacher started off doing the Yang taiji form but his teacher for it was only able to give him the health benefits not the martial art. Then he went searching for something martially applicable. He first went to Jake Mace's school but found it to be utter ********. Then he went to Ip Man lineage wing chun school. He got some good knowledge there but was still seeking something. Then he met Chen Xiaowang at an expo and everything from there changed for him. He quickly went through and added the laojia yilu and erlu, xinjia yilu and erlu to his form collection. However when he went to teach he gave me these words, "Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself." So at first he only taught me eight stances, their transitions and applications from the Chen form. The silk reeling with various stepping methods was our focus for a long time to make sure I could practice something that was worth my time.

It's really difficult to find a martial arts school that teaches tai chi (Yang taiji) as a martial art, especially here in the U.S. where it's really watered down to the point where it's useless all together. It's a shame that so many people waste there time with something that they could actually learn correctly and be good at it. If a person likes a martial arts then they might as well learn it correctly from a knowledgeable instructor instead of spending many years learning how to do something the wrong way.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

"Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself."

I like that analogy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So at first he only taught me eight stances, ...

When I taught my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with 8 stances for the 1st day class. In the middle of my 1st class, a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I have not seen him since then.

I like to start with left and right drills before the form. The advantage of this approach is you will always develop your both sides equally.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I taught my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with 8 stances for the 1st day class. In the middle of my 1st class, a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I have not seen him since then.

I like to start with left and right drills before the form. The advantage of this approach is you will always develop your both sides equally.

Him leaving was a good thing. He clearly didn't have the patience or the knowledge to understand that there is no way to properly learn the style without the stances and basic movements. I would leave a class if the first thing the instructor teaches is the form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Him leaving was a good thing. He clearly didn't have the patience or the knowledge to understand that there is no way to properly learn the style without the stances and basic movements. I would leave a class if the first thing the instructor teaches is the form.

If a student can learn all 8 basic stances (a, b, ..., g, h), and also 8 x 8 = 64 different ways to shift from one stance into another (include shift from one side x stance into another side x stance), when he starts to learn form from any MA style, he can pretty much just concentrate on the arms movement and he can learn it very fast.

Sometime I don't understand why people don't want to spend enough training time on the basic but want to jump into form ASAP.

 

[WingChunKid]

In Wing Chun it’s quite important practise the forms. They do eventually improve your fighting skill. One may think that forms are just a sequence of movements you do by yourself, but in Wing Chun and other Chinese arts they help with a lot of things.

Siu Nim Tao

The first form taught to beginners. Also the most important form.

At basic level, the first form teaches the student about the centreline, hand positioning and striking. It also helps with basic long term things, like making your legs stronger through the stance. You need to be relaxed when doing the form, and you must do it slowly. At advanced level the student should be looking at correct elbow positioning, and energy. At certain points in the Siu Nim Tao form, more energy is needed in a strike/ movement than in other strikes/movements. Just because Siu Nim Tao is the first and most fundamental form, doesn’t mean that advanced students don’t still do it. Advanced students and even masters and grandmasters should practise Siu Nim Tao. Overall it helps fighting ability because of the energy and position. Using correct energy amounts at different times will help in a fight, so will correct position.

Chum Kiu

The second form which is taught to semi-advanced students. Chum Kiu involves turning in the stance and movement, unlike Siu Nim Tao. Turning with technique increases power, and turning will also help your balance and structure in the form. Chum Kiu also introduces some kicks, which are very important. As well as energy changing (which Siu Nim Tao), Chum Kiu also has weight shifting. When turning and stepping, more of your bodyweight is one leg than the other, and sometimes you have to shift your weight to the other leg. Overall it helps fighting ability because shifting your weight and balance are two things which will definitely help in a fight.

Biu Jee

The third form which is taught to advanced students. It improves turning, footwork and weight shifting like Chum Kiu. It also helps the student to develop power form a very short distance. Biu Jee consists a lot of emergency techniques which are applied if the structure and centreline hasn’t worked, or if the student is pinned or trapped and these include low kicks, sweeps, elbow strikes and finger thrusts.


There are also 3 weapons forms, but I won't include those, mostly because they’re very advanced and I know nothing about them.

I am only the 3rd grade level in my Wing Chun school, so I have just realized I know more than I thought.