Forms: A total fighting system?

[Flying Crane]

Just to chime in here

Taiji and Xingyi are big on form and structure in the beginning, not so much rank however.

...

Forms are central to the majority of CMA styles in existence. And to the internal styles they are, I believe, even more important.

Just wanted to comment that I think your entire post here is a very good example of what I have been trying to express in my last few posts here.

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK. Three things.
1. Cuong Nhu has an overall assocation with a governing body. The purpose of the assocition is to do three things. 1) Limit Cuong Nhu McDojo's (I'll let you decide how well we did with that). 2) Make sure every one in the style understands the depth of the technique. 3) Make sure everyone who says they are doing Cuong Nhu, is doing Cuong Nhu.
So, can we reconginse that not ALL associations are evil?
2. Kidswarrior, are you trying to create your own style? Cause it seems like you are form the post were you outlined the teaching order.
3. Cuong Nhu is a form based system. If you could find a school in your area, they might be able to help figure out how to go about doing that. If not, send me a PM and I will give you the ruff out line of our requirements, to help you along.

Also, Exile I'll help you right that book. Sounds like fun!

 

[kidswarrior]

2. Kidswarrior, are you trying to create your own style? Cause it seems like you are form the post were you outlined the teaching order.

My own style? Everything I know I owe to those who came before me; there is nothing new. So here's my answer:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/20...ics-of-karate/

You can get the idea from the URL itself just what he's going on about... Note the very final paragraph of the essay:

In fact, I would argue that we should all be saying “Thank goodness!” anytime one of these Karate organizations experiences a hemorrhage that causes them to bleed members and spawn the birth of three new organizations. This is because from the ashes of the old organization and its old thinking comes the ability to choose from various options. These splinters are not a negative thing. They are a positive thing. Hopefully, Karate will continue to move away from a governing body model and toward a laissez faire model in which the club level is where control lies.

One of my friends once asked me if I thought this problem of splintering amongst Karate associations would ever be fixed. My answer was “Are you joking? The splintering is the fix!”​

I'm one of those splinters that arose from the ashes of the demise of some other things.
​

 

[Steel Tiger]

My own style? Everything I know I owe to those who came before me; there is nothing new. So here's my answer:

I'm one of those splinters that arose from the ashes of the demise of some other things.​

The quote you have conveniently reminded me of (thanks) has made me think. While I can see the point being made and agree, I can also see that splintering can lead to a loss of application and interpretation in forms.

I can easily envision a scenario in which a large organisation breaks up into, say a dozen smaller ones. It is possible that one or two or more of these small groups then procede along a training path that is so focused on forms that they forget about application. Two or three generations later you have students who know the forms but not the apllication of same. I think that some weapon arts suffer from this for the simple reason that they cannot effectively practice the applications and so they have dropped them.

So my conclusion is that one can stray from the proper emphasis with regard to forms in two ways. You can throw forms away altogether as useless and containing no information, or you can go the other way and practice forms to the exclusion of all else and make them useless and lacking information. Interesting that both paths end up in the same place huh?

 

[kidswarrior]

The quote you have conveniently reminded me of (thanks) has made me think. While I can see the point being made and agree, I can also see that splintering can lead to a loss of application and interpretation in forms.

No doubt, splintering has many potential pitfalls (to borrow Sukerkin's penchant for mixed metaphors --Gotcha', Suke :lfao.

I can easily envision a scenario in which a large organisation breaks up into, say a dozen smaller ones. It is possible that one or two or more of these small groups then procede along a training path that is so focused on forms that they forget about application. Two or three generations later you have students who know the forms but not the apllication of same.

Hey, I studied under those guys. Beautiful solo forms, with ridiculous explanations of application. :bs1:

So my conclusion is that one can stray from the proper emphasis with regard to forms in two ways. You can throw forms away altogether as useless and containing no information, or you can go the other way and practice forms to the exclusion of all else and make them useless and lacking information. Interesting that both paths end up in the same place huh?

Yes, an interesting point, Steel Tiger. I'd just also make the point that it sounds like when you say forms, it seems you're implying 'solo' forms, and never partner practiced forms. And in fairness to this assumption, I've never seen a partner form even attempted in any class I've attended in almost 15 years in multiple arts. So I'd say you're right on in my experience. :ultracool

 

[CuongNhuka]

My own style? Everything I know I owe to those who came before me; there is nothing new. So here's my answer:

I'm one of those splinters that arose from the ashes of the demise of some other things.

While your not techniquely creating a differnit style, in many ways I would say you are. You are talking about, what seems like, radical changes in the circulum of your style. And I checked your user cp, it seems like you have studied a variety of arts, I imagine you would be including material from those styles. So, while it would be simply a splinter of anouther association, in many ways you would creating a new style. Just saying.
Next, have you considered what I said in part three? It may help you with the problems you seem to have with the circulum.
Lastly, in my oppion, when someone breaks off from an assocaition, they create a new sub-style. Even if every thing remains the same, they have created a new version of the original system, and thus a new style of martial arts. In my oppion.

 

[kidswarrior]

While your not techniquely creating a differnit style, in many ways I would say you are. You are talking about, what seems like, radical changes in the circulum of your style. And I checked your user cp, it seems like you have studied a variety of arts, I imagine you would be including material from those styles. So, while it would be simply a splinter of anouther association, in many ways you would creating a new style. Just saying.
Next, have you considered what I said in part three? It may help you with the problems you seem to have with the circulum.
Lastly, in my oppion, when someone breaks off from an assocaition, they create a new sub-style. Even if every thing remains the same, they have created a new version of the original system, and thus a new style of martial arts. In my oppion.

Thanks for your carefully reasoned response, CN. Let me chew on it for awhile.

 

[kidswarrior]

As far as writing a book goes, it's an interesting idea, but a difficult one as well. I really believe that kata and forms from different systems were not created in the same manner, or with the same elements always in mind. This is why I found Abernathy's book not so useful, because I don't know the kata he was basing his information on, and from what he wrote, I don't believe my kata from kenpo, or forms from my Chinese arts follow the rules he outlines. I don't believe there are broad rules from one Chinese system to another, either. So any book or other writings may need to be focused on a very specific kata or series of kata, and would not apply across the board. Interesting idea, however.

So have at it, friends...

I hear ya, Michael. I've passed on many writing projects because unless it reaches out and grabs me, who needs it? :ultracool

Know what you're saying about IA, too. Once in awhile, his stuff will suddenly turn cold on me. And I usually then realize I just don't have enough experience with the specific form(s) he may be discussing. Fortunately, in SKK, I was exposed to (I think) three of the forms he often uses (tho they've been adapted heavily, but still...). So, I lucked out in that way.

Thanks for being honest.
~Mark

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thanks for your carefully reasoned response, CN. Let me chew on it for awhile.

Can Do!

 

[marlon]

Do you believe a form or group of forms can contain a complete fighting system?

i believe a properly trained martial artist is a complete fighting system in and of themselves and can use a form or forms to demonstrate this.

respectfully,
marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

There are other issues. What about children in these schools? They represent a substantial chunk of the school owner's income. How do they fit into the curriculum? Do you have two tracks? How do you fit kids into a lower-volume, CQ combat oriented approach to the MAs?

My head is starting to hurt...

I never got back to answering exile's last question, a critical one at that for anyone who is going to accept children as students. For example, I am not going to teach throat attacks, eye gouges, or joint breaks to 6-10 year olds. I believe there could be psychological damage just in visualizing such physically brutal attacks, let alone actually performing them. And while I never intended to take students that young, life happens, and then the reality of exile's question sets in.

So, the short answer is, yes, I have two tracks. Actually, the track for someone who starts out at, say, the age of 8 will eventually include all the curriculum for a student who starts at 12/13 or older (I don't take adult students--too much aggravation ), but for the younger beginners, I've created new, additional forms that allow them to learn self defense without robbing them of their childhoods. I guess there is precedent for this, in that it seems much along the lines of the theory that the widespread use of forms with schoolchildren in Japan in the early 1900s forced the bunkai to be changed to something tamer than the brutal versions originally intended.

Of course, I want to avoid the juvenile version becoming the final version, and so neutralizing the effectiveness of the art, as seems to have happened with some of the forms as Asian arts made their way west. I should also clarify that I don't use a junior black belt model, so someone who starts at 8 is looking at 8-9/10 years to make black belt--but if they and their parents want to study with me, that's an up-front understanding.

Anyway, enough rambling for one morning, and I hope this makes some sense. Just felt in not answering Ex's last question, a piece was left out.

 

[exile]

I never got back to answering exile's last question, a critical one at that for anyone who is going to accept children as students. For example, I am not going to teach throat attacks, eye gouges, or joint breaks to 6-10 year olds. I believe there could be psychological damage just in visualizing such physically brutal attacks, let alone actually performing them.

I think that is a sound, completely appropriate way to approach the issue of self-defense for young children. For all kinds of reasons, it makes sense not to show potentially crippling or permanently damaging attacks to children who have only the haziest understanding of the potential dangers of the world, on the one hand, and of the vulnerability of the human body on the other. We have to assume that primary protection for children that age will be provided by responsible adults; that's why it's so important for parents to be aware of their young children's whereabouts and companions at all times. As children get older periods of independent, only very lightly monitored activities become more important, but at the younger end of that age range you mentioned, full time oversight by a parent, trusted acquaintance or teacher is essential. And if that rule is followed, there is no need whatever for child to have to contemplate major (or even minor) violence in self-defense against an age-mate. The problem from the point of view of MA instruction is that if the child is going to stick with the art, then at some point his or her understanding of the art is going to have to encompass the unfortunate truth that its primary original purpose was defense against an dangerous attacker. By the time comes when we can no longer protect them ourselves every minute of the day, they should be at least starting to learn the grimmest aspect of the MAs. So setting up a transition down the line is really what's at issue, eh?

IAnd while I never intended to take students that young, life happens, and then the reality of exile's question sets in.

So, the short answer is, yes, I have two tracks. Actually, the track for someone who starts out at, say, the age of 8 will eventually include all the curriculum for a student who starts at 12/13 or older (I don't take adult students--too much aggravation ), but for the younger beginners, I've created new, additional forms that allow them to learn self defense without robbing them of their childhoods.

Excellent, Mark, I'd love to see these forms in action—have you ever made a video of a child performing them?

II guess there is precedent for this, in that it seems much along the lines of the theory that the widespread use of forms with schoolchildren in Japan in the early 1900s forced the bunkai to be changed to something tamer than the brutal versions originally intended.

Itosu knew what he was doing. He wasn't really dumbing down karate, though he was accused of it in his own later lifetime. His karate, Matsumura's, Azato's and some of the others was damaging in the extreme; he knew that he couldn't possibly have young children doing anything remotely like that.

IOf course, I want to avoid the juvenile version becoming the final version, and so neutralizing the effectiveness of the art, as seems to have happened with some of the forms as Asian arts made their way west. I should also clarify that I don't use a junior black belt model, so someone who starts at 8 is looking at 8-9/10 years to make black belt--but if they and their parents want to study with me, that's an up-front understanding.

Anyway, enough rambling for one morning, and I hope this makes some sense. Just felt in not answering Ex's last question, a piece was left out.

Sounds pretty coherent to me, Mark! I think the use of novel forms is terrific. You can sort of design them for pedagogical purposes and eventual ramping-up to something a lot more street-realistic, when they're developmentally ready for it. As I say, I'd love to see one of your youngsters performing one of them.

 

[seasoned]

Do you believe a form or group of forms can contain a complete fighting system?

Let me pose this question in light of your post above. Can the written word or typed as in a computer program contain your true feelings about anything? I would venture to say no. Yes you can put down information, categorize it, but it will lack your true feeling. The intangible part of this type of communication. The feeling part if you will. When we write down a statement or even post on this web site unless we communicate it very well there will be variables that don’t come across. I believe that Kata is like the computer or the written word in that it shows you a glimpse but we need to put the feeling part into it. You can work on one part of the Kata but like a written sentence there is much more that is not said or felt. There is a saying I read somewhere that went like this, don’t show me a1000 techniques but show me a few principles that I can use within a 1000 techniques. I feel that yes there is a complete system within the Kata and that is the system of principles that are contained within our art. Once we have drilled the principles into our being with repetition of movement within the Kata and practice the Kata moves verbatim then a whole new world of technique will open up to us, and it will be poetry in motion.

 

[kidswarrior]

Sounds pretty coherent to me, Mark! I think the use of novel forms is terrific. You can sort of design them for pedagogical purposes and eventual ramping-up to something a lot more street-realistic, when they're developmentally ready for it. As I say, I'd love to see one of your youngsters performing one of them.

And I'd love to show it. The legal and ethical issues are just more than I want to tackle right now, though. Just to give an idea, though, I've merely taken the essential techniques at the beginning levels, and put them together into 26-move formalized practice sets....so, forms. . Young children can practice these at home alone, with friends from class, or we can do them in class. Any and all embed in muscle memory the basics of the art, as well as self-defense techniques, such as a hard shin kick, in the case of a horrific event (e.g., attempted abduction). And all burn off excess energy which the very young are so blessed with, as well as keep away boredom, which they are so cursed with.

But yeah, some time I'll get the kids in action and post some stuff.

 

[Makalakumu]

Great thread. Interesting read so far. I think that Exile nailed the salient questions that need to be asked AFTER someone realizes that kata were meant to be complete combat systems. These are questions that I've thought of alot and I've come up with some answers in other threads.

I How to access the complete martial content of MA forms by interpreting them in terms of their combat applications

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31800

II How to build a curriculum centered around forms and their combat applications, teaching individual techniques as part of the larger context of combat-effective bunkai.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31764

Here is a thread that describes my adult curriculum.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34158

III How to do it so the poor sod trying to make a living teaching MAs can do so, even though this approach to MA instruction is—as FC and ST have both pointed out—not very compatible with large classes, of the kind that typically pay the freight at most MA schools.

I think that it is a mistake to assume that one cannot teach this stuff in large groups. Once you have the correct information, all you need is the correct classroom management strategy and you can convey this information.

My dojang is small because I choose to keep it that way. If I were to go about getting more students and teaching them, this is what I would do.

1. Make sure that you have a curriculum that is philosophically sound so that it is easy for students to understand.

2. Break up that curriculum into easily digestible peices that a student can easily put back together.

3. Develop a set of rules for ettiquette and protocal for each component of your training. This will help you manage a larger group.

4. Separate students based on the stage of learning they have attained.

There are other issues. What about children in these schools? They represent a substantial chunk of the school owner's income. How do they fit into the curriculum? Do you have two tracks? How do you fit kids into a lower-volume, CQ combat oriented approach to the MAs?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48896

 

[exile]

Great work assembling these links, UpNorth!

I think that it is a mistake to assume that one cannot teach this stuff in large groups. Once you have the correct information, all you need is the correct classroom management strategy and you can convey this information.

My dojang is small because I choose to keep it that way. If I were to go about getting more students and teaching them, this is what I would do.

1. Make sure that you have a curriculum that is philosophically sound so that it is easy for students to understand.

2. Break up that curriculum into easily digestible peices that a student can easily put back together.

3. Develop a set of rules for ettiquette and protocal for each component of your training. This will help you manage a larger group.

4. Separate students based on the stage of learning they have attained.

Good ideas, and the last one especially seems to be crucial. But you would probably need to expand your staff a bit to implement it so you don't go crazy. I imagine that the best way of simulating a small class in the face of large enrollments is to treat that enrollment as the combination of a number of small programs, each with its own instructor. ...

And I'd love to show it. The legal and ethical issues are just more than I want to tackle right now, though. Just to give an idea, though, I've merely taken the essential techniques at the beginning levels, and put them together into 26-move formalized practice sets....so, forms. . Young children can practice these at home alone, with friends from class, or we can do them in class. Any and all embed in muscle memory the basics of the art, as well as self-defense techniques, such as a hard shin kick, in the case of a horrific event (e.g., attempted abduction). And all burn off excess energy which the very young are so blessed with, as well as keep away boredom, which they are so cursed with.

But yeah, some time I'll get the kids in action and post some stuff.

I can sort of picture what you're doing, Kdswrr. It's kind of like the TKD kichos or the taikyoku pre-katas in Shotokan... basic kihon techs linked so they can be performed as a unitary movement sequences, with basic SD apps built in for later reference when they reach the point where they're ready for that sort of thing...

 

[Steel Tiger]

4. Separate students based on the stage of learning they have attained.

Good ideas, and the last one especially seems to be crucial. But you would probably need to expand your staff a bit to implement it so you don't go crazy. I imagine that the best way of simulating a small class in the face of large enrollments is to treat that enrollment as the combination of a number of small programs, each with its own instructor. ...

This something I have contemplated for a long time and I think Exile has pointed out the biggest problem with implementation. It very difficult to imagine effective instruction coming from a guy who has to move from group to group or room to room and devote very little time to each.

You could also limit each enrolment and then treat each one as a separate class. The problem you then run into is the different learning rates of the students.

 

[kidswarrior]

I can sort of picture what you're doing, Kdswrr. It's kind of like the TKD kichos or the taikyoku pre-katas in Shotokan... basic kihon techs linked so they can be performed as a unitary movement sequences, with basic SD apps built in for later reference when they reach the point where they're ready for that sort of thing...

Yep!

 

[CuongNhuka]

This something I have contemplated for a long time and I think Exile has pointed out the biggest problem with implementation. It very difficult to imagine effective instruction coming from a guy who has to move from group to group or room to room and devote very little time to each.

You could also limit each enrolment and then treat each one as a separate class. The problem you then run into is the different learning rates of the students.

Or he could divide up classes based on the same idea, but make it(like) Monday and Thursday for the littlens, Teusday and Friday for the mid-teenagers, Wednesday and Saturday for the older kids. Or divide it up by when class takes place. 4 -5 for the littlens, 5 -6 for the mid-teenagers, 6-7 for the older kids. Or however he wants to do it.

 

[LawDog]

Depends on if the forms cover all of the areas within any given system. If they do then possibly, if they do not then no.