Do you have "summary form" in your MA system?

[Prince_Alarming]

Not officially, but I think if you were to just learn kushanku and drill its bunkai, you'd have a functional version of our martial art. To me, kushanku IS karate.

 

[Buka]

Martial Arts shouldn’t be complicated, it’s not rocket science. Yeah, sure, we romanticize it a bit, but that’s part of the allure to students.

 

[wab25]

What I'm saying about Funakoshi and what he said about the Heian series is this: you have a complete system with the Heian series. He specifically stated the whole series.

Okay, so lets bring in what Funakoshi said about Taikyoku..... (from the Karate Do Kyohan Karate Do Kyohan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive page 42)

There are three Taikyoku forms (numbered by the ordinal terms, Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan). Taikyoku Shodan is an elementary form consisting of two arm techniques, lower level deflecting block (gedan barai) and middle level front attack (chiidan oi-zuke), and one stance, the front stance (zenkutsudachi). Because of its simplicity, the kata is easily learned by beginners. Nevertheless, as its name implies," this form is of the most profound character and one to which, upon mastery of the art of karate, an expert will return to select it as the ultimate training kata,

Once one is able to perform the Taikyoku forms with proficiency, he can understand the other kata with relative ease. For this reason, the Taikyoku form should be considered elementary as well as the ultimate form, In fact, the Taikyoku Kata is the very prototype of a karate kata, a combination of the the down block and middle level front punch (basic techniques in any training), the front stance, the typical body movements of karate, and a defined line of movement.

So, Funakoshi considers Taikyoku to be the "ultimate training kata." It prepares the student to understand the kata that will follow. Additionally, it teaches the typical body movements and lines of motion for karate. It is the foundation of the art, as well as a summary of what you will be studying or have studied.

On page 35 of the above text, Funakoshi states:

Moreover, the student who has gained proficiency in basic techniques and understands the essence of the Taikyoku Kata will appreciate the real meaning of the maxim, “In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack.” It is for these reasons that I have given them the name Taikyoku.

So, according to Funakoshi, Taikyoku has deeper teachings in it as well... not just rudimentary gross motor movement....

That said, are you going into a fight with only Heian Shodan? Good luck, you can't kick. Are you going in with only Heian Sandan? I hope the attacker doesn't go for your head, because you can't high block.

Going into a fight, with only the principles and ideas taught in Heian Shodan? I think one could do quite well.... providing he really understands what is being taught there.

What do you mean I can't kick? The kata are not there to limit what words you can use.... but to teach you how to use all the words that exist, now and in the future. I certainly can kick, when applying what is taught in Heian Shodan. I can defend my head, using only what is taught in Heian Sandan.... I can even use a high block..... You are using the grammar book to limit your vocabulary.... which was never the intent of the grammar book.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If I'm looking for a kata in Shotokan that covers all the basics, here's what it would need (at least, in my estimation):

- a punch
- a backfist
- a bottom fist
- an elbow strike
- a high block
- a low block
- an inside block
- an outside block
- a knife hand block
- a front kick
- a side kick
- a knee strike

That's 12 items.

Of the Heian series, Heian Nidan (or Pinan Shodan outside of Shotokan) covers the most at 9 (it's missing an outside block, a knee strike, and an elbow strike). Heian Shodan (Pinan Nidan) and Heian Godan are tied for covering the least at 5.

Kanku Dai covers 11 (no outside block). That puts it at the highest in Shotokan, beating out Sochin which also covers 9 like Heian Nidan.

To get all 12 techniques in as few kata as possible without Kanku Dai, you do this with Heian Nidan and Bassai Dai.

To get all 12 techniques using the lowest kata possible, you do this with Heian Nidan, Sandan, and Yondan.

Could you describe “ bottom fist” I’m not familiar with Shotokan nomenclature.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Martial Arts shouldn’t be complicated, it’s not rocket science.

1. Keep from getting hit.
2. Hit the other guy.
3. Look cool doing it.

we romanticize it a bit, but that’s part of the allure to students.

A spoon of sugar helps getting the medicine down.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Not officially, but I think if you were to just learn kushanku and drill its bunkai, you'd have a functional version of our martial art. To me, kushanku IS karate.

Exactly. Of all the katas that I know, if someone was only able to learn just one kata, I'd say that this would be it. There's a reason why Anko Itosu chose this kata (along with Jion, but mostly for the embusen) to break down into the Pinan series.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Not only that, it keeps you in decent shape and looks fidddlesticking cool.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Could you describe “ bottom fist” I’m not familiar with Shotokan nomenclature.

Exactly what is says. A strike that lands with the bottom of the fist. Executed in a stabbing-like motion.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Exactly what is says. A strike that lands with the bottom of the fist. Executed in a stabbing-like motion.

Ok I call that a hammer fist, but the name isn’t important. Just wanted to know what you meant.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A "summary form" is a form that contain the most important strategies/principles/techniques.

Usually, the "summary form" is the last form that you learn in your system. It's like a "survey paper" that you study before you start to do your own research.

The CMA praying mantis system contains such form. My long fist system doesn't contain it. Does your MA system contain it?

Jow ga has one, but I don't know it. For the most part things that are in the previous forms are often found in the next form in addition to the new things from the new form

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's why the summary form may contain personal flavor. A may think something is important. B may not.

For example, I think the "3 non-landing kicks 三不落地" is important training. Others may not think it's important. The day that you can still do it, the day that you are still young.

First kick applies to: Front kick, Crescent kick.
Second kick is double front kick.
Third kick is kick dirt in face or kick face in low position. (someone goes low for the legs hop back to escape while doing that little kick to hit the face or interrupt that forward movement.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Exactly. Of all the katas that I know, if someone was only able to learn just one kata, I'd say that this would be it. There's a reason why Anko Itosu chose this kata (along with Jion, but mostly for the embusen) to break down into the Pinan series.

Funnily enough though, I've read somebody expressing the opinion that the pinan were not in fact created from a breakdown from kushanku but from another lost kata called 'channan'. I've never heard that opinion from any other source, nor does it make any sense to me given the profusion of techniques from the pinan series in Kushanku. I'm curious about it though.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Funnily enough though, I've read somebody expressing the opinion that the pinan were not in fact created from a breakdown from kushanku but from another lost kata called 'channan'. I've never heard that opinion from any other source, nor does it make any sense to me given the profusion of techniques from the pinan series in Kushanku. I'm curious about it though.

That may have been me, in another thread - I know I've mentioned it somewhere. I learned all the pinans in the 1960's (there was/is very little difference in execution from style to style) and our version of Kusanku. I was never struck by a "profusion of techniques" they shared. Jion has far more similarities with the pinans. One can see similarities in many kata across several styles.

There are many similar techniques shared between kata (this can really be seen in bo kata) as there are only so many ways to skin the cat. There was also much cross-pollination from style to style and kata to kata. Back then (1900) there were no curriculum-defined styles, and the masters had no problem adding a little of this and deleting a little of that.

I can't remember when I first read of Channon kata, though I think it may have been from Motobu Choki, a student of Itosu, developer of the pinans. Googling "Channon kata", I saw a couple of youtube demos though IMO none should be considered representitive of what the kata really looked like. If you google it, Jesse Enkamp posts an article on Channon by Joe Swift, one of the elite karate historians. It seems little is known which is par for the course regarding karate history.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

That may have been me, in another thread - I know I've mentioned it somewhere. I learned all the pinans in the 1960's (there was/is very little difference in execution from style to style) and our version of Kusanku. I was never struck by a "profusion of techniques" they shared. Jion has far more similarities with the pinans. One can see similarities in many kata across several styles.

There are many similar techniques shared between kata (this can really be seen in bo kata) as there are only so many ways to skin the cat. There was also much cross-pollination from style to style and kata to kata. Back then (1900) there were no curriculum-defined styles, and the masters had no problem adding a little of this and deleting a little of that.

I can't remember when I first read of Channon kata, though I think it may have been from Motobu Choki, a student of Itosu, developer of the pinans. Googling "Channon kata", I saw a couple of youtube demos though IMO none should be considered representitive of what the kata really looked like. If you google it, Jesse Enkamp posts an article on Channon by Joe Swift, one of the elite karate historians. It seems little is known which is par for the course regarding karate history.

Cool, Jesse Enkamp rocks, will do a google thank you

 

[Leam_Hall]

While I understand the difference between "Summary" and "Foundational", Wing Chun (within my limited understanding) first teaches Sil Lim Tau (SLT). SLT has most everything you'd need for a good self-defense system (1). The other forms (Chum Kui and Bui Gee) are for the rare times something comes up outside of SLT.

Admittedly, my focus is self-defense. More time aligning self with principles by mastering fewer techniques is better.

(1) SLT does not teach movement because it focuses on the hands. We do need to learn to move, but movement is an art unto itself. Hence my co-study of Systema.

 

[windwalker099]

The CMA praying mantis system contains such form. My long fist system doesn't contain it. Does your MA system contain it?

Wouldn't Crushing Step [崩步]

Be considered. the foundation practice for N-mantis
depending on branch ?

In taiji we use the

"opening sequence" expressing 重心 Zhòngxīn

key to understanding how to express and use it in all following
movement.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wouldn't Crushing Step [崩步]

Be considered. the foundation practice for N-mantis
depending on branch ?

In taiji we use the

"opening sequence" expressing 重心 Zhòngxīn

key to understanding how to express and use it in all following
movement.

This man moves nicely and has good alignment.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Closest I can come to a summary form is Xingyiquan Bashi