Forever War: Is Joe Lieberman Right?

[CoryKS]

To reply to the topic: A nation can't just fight a war until it gets bored or finds something better to do and then walk away. It fights until A) it wins unconditionally; B) its enemy loses his will; or C) it loses. We lack the will to do what would be necessary to make A or B happen. I really hope C doesn't happen but it looks to me like we have a lot of people including our leaders who are okay with C as long as it's convenient for them. It may be that the majority of those who protested the war under Bush will accept it as long as their guy is running things. We'll see. Lieberman may right about the next theater, but the fact is that unless we harden ourselves somewhat to the suffering of our enemy this war will last a long, long time whether we choose to participate or not.

 

[tempus]

You could pull all troops home and close all bases and not get involved with the affairs of the world; However, that allows for someone outside that wall to grow very powerful. If we had done this during WW2 Germany would have all of Europe, Africa and part of Asia. Then they would be pushing into South America and Canada. Plus they would have perfected jet power and the atom bomb before the USA. Thus, easily destroying the wall and the country with out having to put a boot on the ground.

In my opinion evil needs to be destroyed without mercy and that is not what has been done for decades. Look at the UN, which allows dictators and tyrants to have a say. If all these countries were confronted before my time on this planet things may have been different, but as long as you let evil grow and build it gets tougher to beat later on. Iran is looking for nukes that will be huge when they get there.

 

[Tez3]

Giving money as a charitable deed is fine but when a country 'donates' money expecting to have the government of it's choice in power there's always going to be trouble. I don't think America needs to stop giving money to genuine charities or when natural disasters strike if that's what the people wish but I think it's people need to look at why and to whom money is donated. Giving money to opposition parties to buy arms to stage coups isn't wise and is very undemocratic, using money to shape world events the way it wants it isn't a good idea because frankly people are never going to be grateful for that. If you are giving money for charitable work you should expect no return on your money other than knowing you have done a good thing. If you don't want that feeling don't donate.
American bases are in foreign countries for America's good no one elses. The bases in the UK are very much there for America's business and good not ours. As are the ones in Germany, I've visited for one reason or another most in Europe and there's not one thing they do that is for the good of the 'host' country. You can't say it's that good for the economy as most things are shipped in for the troops little is spent outside. In fact the units here tend to cost us money paying for security etc. The nearest one to us, Menwith Hill, security is done by the MOD not the Americans themselves. When Greenham Common was active before the Americans left it cost a fortune in securing it from the peace women who were a complete and utter nightmare, far from being peaceful they could be quite violent.

It would be tiresome of me to go over yet again how America brought itself out of recession by entering the Second World War so while yes we are grateful for the help we do also remember it bankrupted Europe and enriched America. 'Saving' Europe wasn't an altogether altruistic action.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

American bases are in foreign countries for America's good no one elses. The bases in the UK are very much there for America's business and good not ours. As are the ones in Germany, I've visited for one reason or another most in Europe and there's not one thing they do that is for the good of the 'host' country. You can't say it's that good for the economy as most things are shipped in for the troops little is spent outside. In fact the units here tend to cost us money paying for security etc. The nearest one to us, Menwith Hill, security is done by the MOD not the Americans themselves. When Greenham Common was active before the Americans left it cost a fortune in securing it from the peace women who were a complete and utter nightmare, far from being peaceful they could be quite violent.

So, we stole the land those bases are on, don't employ a single Brit on the bases, don't pay a pence in rent, steal British water, oil, gas, electric without compensation, and toss our trash in the Thames while baring buttocks at the guys in the tall fuzzy hats? All of the runways, barracks, storage buildings etc were constructed by imported labor using no local products? When Private Smith gets KP and has to peel all those tators, he's pealing a spud shipped across the Atlantic, not one grown locally by a local British farmer? That's one expensive spud, though given they pay $500 for a hammer I'm not surprised. No American soldier is allowed leave in Britain to wander around getting snockered in a pub crawl so a strapping Brit MP could kick his drunk Yank **** while at the same time mocking him for not being able to handle real ale and not the thin pisswater they sell in the US?

God damn, are we ever leaches.

Our damn government's been lying to us again folks. I saw where they said they had been paying over $200 Million a year alone for a base in the Philippines. (Negotiations in 1991 were in the 700M range)

The US Military LEASED 8.5 BILLION US Dollars in facilities and land in 2008 from foreign nations.

United Kingdom US DoD owned and leased is valued at 6.3 Billion US dollars in 2008. Now if the US owns it, I have to assume that we paid someone, probably the British government, for it and didn't send in troops and capture it. If we're leasing it, I assume it's again the British government getting those rent payments and not say, the French or some baker in the south Bronx.

2008 DoD military "Base Structure Report"
​

So, my view is, if you don't want us there, cancel the leases, buy back the land and buildings, and cover our moving expenses for the gear we need to withdraw. You can keep the dvd's though, we're in a different region and they won't play here.

Matter of fact, we'll keep the $300B+ we give out in foreign aid. Close all the bases, bring the troops home, and stop international welfare, ****, we can get ever American a house, car and a free colon cleaning and still have cash left over to build a giant net over the nation to catch missiles, rockets, and the occasional falling arch angel.


/sarcastic and tongue in cheek reply.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Oh trade is fine, non-military of course. But, lets close the bases and put those millions of dollars back in the US economy, not some hostile nations for example.

I would help you guys pack.
But of course, the Americans would get antsy about so much troops being deployed nationally...

 

[Bruno@MT]

To reply to the topic: A nation can't just fight a war until it gets bored or finds something better to do and then walk away. It fights until A) it wins unconditionally; B) its enemy loses his will; or C) it loses. We lack the will to do what would be necessary to make A or B happen. I really hope C doesn't happen but it looks to me like we have a lot of people including our leaders who are okay with C as long as it's convenient for them.

The thing is that Iraq was not a war that could be won, once the US decided to stay. It seems that most of the fighting is to kick the Americans out. Staying and fighting will just prolong that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I would help you guys pack.
But of course, the Americans would get antsy about so much troops being deployed nationally...

The US Military currently numbers just shy of 1.5 million. I believe that number covers all branches in uniform, and does not include civilians or foreign contractors. Most are deployed outside the US.

When it was suggested that the US withdraw from Okinawa, with public pressure there to do so, the government of Okinawa instead argued to keep the base and troops, one of the arguments was that despite the issues (and trust me, there have been a number of ugly ones including child rape) they feel that the security and economic benefits outweigh the negative.

Personally, and this is just personal opinion, I think that any nation that doesn't want us, our help, our equipment or our supplies should be allowed to ask us to leave, and we should leave, 100%, no half way ****.

We can use the cash here.

 

[Tez3]

So, we stole the land those bases are on, don't employ a single Brit on the bases, don't pay a pence in rent, steal British water, oil, gas, electric without compensation, and toss our trash in the Thames while baring buttocks at the guys in the tall fuzzy hats? All of the runways, barracks, storage buildings etc were constructed by imported labor using no local products? When Private Smith gets KP and has to peel all those tators, he's pealing a spud shipped across the Atlantic, not one grown locally by a local British farmer? That's one expensive spud, though given they pay $500 for a hammer I'm not surprised. No American soldier is allowed leave in Britain to wander around getting snockered in a pub crawl so a strapping Brit MP could kick his drunk Yank **** while at the same time mocking him for not being able to handle real ale and not the thin pisswater they sell in the US?

God damn, are we ever leaches.

Our damn government's been lying to us again folks. I saw where they said they had been paying over $200 Million a year alone for a base in the Philippines. (Negotiations in 1991 were in the 700M range)

The US Military LEASED 8.5 BILLION US Dollars in facilities and land in 2008 from foreign nations.

United Kingdom US DoD owned and leased is valued at 6.3 Billion US dollars in 2008. Now if the US owns it, I have to assume that we paid someone, probably the British government, for it and didn't send in troops and capture it. If we're leasing it, I assume it's again the British government getting those rent payments and not say, the French or some baker in the south Bronx.

2008 DoD military "Base Structure Report"
​

So, my view is, if you don't want us there, cancel the leases, buy back the land and buildings, and cover our moving expenses for the gear we need to withdraw. You can keep the dvd's though, we're in a different region and they won't play here.

Matter of fact, we'll keep the $300B+ we give out in foreign aid. Close all the bases, bring the troops home, and stop international welfare, ****, we can get ever American a house, car and a free colon cleaning and still have cash left over to build a giant net over the nation to catch missiles, rockets, and the occasional falling arch angel.


/sarcastic and tongue in cheek reply.

As Bruno says we'll help you pack.
I was referring to Germany if you read my post. The Americans there are paid in dollars not the local currency and have just about everything imported into the PX for soldiers and families there.
In the UK we pay for a lot concerning the US bases though out lot won't tell you how much.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm081021/text/81021w0008.htm

As for foreign aid I said you might want to look at what you are paying for, often it's interferance in a democratically elected government but which happens to be a political shade the Amercans don't approve of. Unless the CIA is a totally separate entity and not American they have interferred in just about every Countries elections, politics and government. Thats not aid thats unwelcome and undemocratic, if another country tried to do that to you how would you feel. Hell the CIA even had a go at bribing the Vatican which is probably at least if not more rich and equally prone to shoving it's nose in where it's not wanted.

We have only three air force bases, as I said the one I look after and down south there's Mildenhall and Lakenheath plus a couple of other small places which are #security linked'. One base which closed in the 70s was Wethersfield and it became the MOD's police training school.
You may want to look up what some of these bases are doing as well, not in our interests certainly but from your point of view most definitely not in yours either. I strongly suggest you investigate.

Bob it's leeches, very useful medicinally, still used as nothing modern has beaten them yet.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Unless the CIA is a totally separate entity and not American

Don't get me started.......

Here's my take on the world map if the US pulls everyone back...
- A smoking crater where Israel used to be, and around it, several more as the nutcases that run that country and the other nuts that hate them will nuke each other silly.
- A lot of countries changing hands as more small wars topple more governments as 3rd rate armies clash in 4th world nations.
- A lot of people world wide damning us for leaving them alone in their hour of need. Ironically many will be the ones who have been demanding we leave for years.

I'm not going to defend the interventionist crap. If this country was still on it's proper course, that wouldn't have happened. Then again, neither would 9/11.
But, that's my opinion, and I'm crazy.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What the hell is with you guys? The Europeans ***** about the Americans and the Americans ***** about the Europeans.

“If you don’t love us enough we’ll leave”.
“FINE leave then, you’re icky anyway”.
“I will, I swear I will”.
Blah, blah, blah…

Honestly, thank The FSM that none of you are making the decisions up above….

Look guys, International relations 101, the world is all about trade. To have trade you need stability. The world doesn’t care about petty dictators or a lack of democracy, provided the dictators stay within their borders and don’t threaten the regional stability. (Iran threatens the regional stability of the Middle East, North Korea Threatens the regional stability of SW Asia.)

In order to facilitate stability you need to use or imply to use, military force against those who threaten stability. The Brits in the 18 and 19 centuries controlled the seas with the Royal Navy and got very rich doing so. The Americans this century set up bases, (Carrier fleets are Mobile American bases), around the world to secure trade routes, and became very rich because of it. Why do you think there are no real American/European bases in Africa? Because there is no trade with Africa!!

Why do you think China is building up its navy and making huge incursions into Africa, Asia and South America? Trade.

We are all allies, get over it. I can list an easy page of help Canada alone has given the US in the past. I’m sure we could all make similar lists.

But it’s not about that. We ***** like siblings, but when the chips are down we help each other.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

*Hits Ken with a snowball and hides behind Hillary*
Does not!

(Gotta love politics)

 

[Ken Morgan]

*Hits Ken with a snowball and hides behind Hillary*
Does not!

(Gotta love politics)

LOL you *****

 

[celtic_crippler]

What the hell is with you guys? The Europeans ***** about the Americans and the Americans ***** about the Europeans.

“If you don’t love us enough we’ll leave”.
“FINE leave then, you’re icky anyway”.
“I will, I swear I will”.
Blah, blah, blah…

Honestly, thank The FSM that none of you are making the decisions up above….

Look guys, International relations 101, the world is all about trade. To have trade you need stability. The world doesn’t care about petty dictators or a lack of democracy, provided the dictators stay within their borders and don’t threaten the regional stability. (Iran threatens the regional stability of the Middle East, North Korea Threatens the regional stability of SW Asia.)

In order to facilitate stability you need to use or imply to use, military force against those who threaten stability. The Brits in the 18 and 19 centuries controlled the seas with the Royal Navy and got very rich doing so. The Americans this century set up bases, (Carrier fleets are Mobile American bases), around the world to secure trade routes, and became very rich because of it. Why do you think there are no real American/European bases in Africa? Because there is no trade with Africa!!

Why do you think China is building up its navy and making huge incursions into Africa, Asia and South America? Trade.

We are all allies, get over it. I can list an easy page of help Canada alone has given the US in the past. I’m sure we could all make similar lists.

But it’s not about that. We ***** like siblings, but when the chips are down we help each other.

QFT

Always has been about trade, always will be most likely.

Money makes the world go 'round.