flying kicks for the streets.
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drop bear
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Hypothetical is a story.
I am not taking offence. But you are bashing mma and sports style training. Which is mostly funny rather than offensive. As I multi style train as much as anybody.
When you start using use of force law without case study.
when you look at a guy defending himself and then say it is not really self defence because it hasn't fit your script.
I have to wonder.
Let's look at it this way.
I do technique development you do technique development.
I do drills resisted and Unresisted you do combat scenarios.
I spar full contact. You do not.
I do all the elements of your training and then do other elements of training.
Like you I train with street fighters cops bouncers and soldiers.
I also train with ring fighters. I also train with other systems.
You see I am suggesting you do not limit yourself to one method. Because I don't and not limiting myself is effective in the gym in the street and in the ring.
Chris Parker
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And.... that sums up the thread. And most of your posts, honestly.
Look, I'm not saying that to be mean or cruel, it's just that, despite your experience, you really haven't got much education in this field at all... and that's leading you to ignore anything that doesn't match what you think reality is.
From your posts, you have no real understanding of self defence. That's fine... but you're arguing with people who do know what they're talking about.
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drop bear
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That didn't answer the question.
I fly kick a rampaging knife guy. That is self defence in the broad brush strokes that it gets painted.
Ok in reality it is reasonable use of force.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s462a.html
And an arrest.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s458.html
But very few people say they train for reasonable use of force and legal arrests. Which would be technically correct.
They just say they train for self defence.
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:s407:
Chris Parker
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You've had it explained a large number of times, but seem incapable of hearing the answer... so I didn't bother expounding what you've already been told over and over again.
But, to take your example, you fly kick a "rampaging knife guy", that's not self defence.
Is it reasonable use of force? Actually, that's debatable... in order to use the kick, you need to have come in from a distance, and most likely used it by blindsiding the guy with a knife. It might be considered defensible, but it might also look like a form of aggravated assault.
Might you get arrested? Yep.
As far as "very few people say they train for reasonable use of force and legal arrests", where on earth are you pulling that from?
What do you think self defence is?
But, to take your example, you fly kick a "rampaging knife guy", that's not self defence.
Is it reasonable use of force? Actually, that's debatable... in order to use the kick, you need to have come in from a distance, and most likely used it by blindsiding the guy with a knife. It might be considered defensible, but it might also look like a form of aggravated assault.
Might you get arrested? Yep.
As far as "very few people say they train for reasonable use of force and legal arrests", where on earth are you pulling that from?
What do you think self defence is?
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drop bear
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There really isn't self defence as such. It is a part of reasonable use of force. So I would train for a basic self defence. Say I am attacked unprovoked and use force to repelled that attack. Now that does not cover rampaging knife guy. But I can train to defend others specifically just the comunity in general. Both are morally and legally defendable.
So defence against assault which covers a few more circumstances could apply.
Legally I see rampaging knife guy. I have a reasonable fear he is going to stab people. I can use reasonable and proportionate force to prevent him from doing so. He has a knife and seems willing to use it so up to deadly force can and has been justified in these cases.
Cops have shot knife wielders under the same circumstances. There was even a case where a knife wielder was pinned by a car. So the fly kick is not such a big deal.
The flying headbutt against the cop by the scumbag was defended in exactly in that manner. He argued successfully that he feared for the life of a friend.
An arrest would be another use of force that is not self defence but could be trained under the banner of a self defence system. Like that thread on pinning your drunk uncle.
Now fly kicking someone could be seen as assault. But I would have to see the circumstances of a conviction to make a judgement.
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To each their own. My view is: fighting is 2 people, agreeing to meet at a set time/place. Ex: MMA- the fighters are meeting in the cage on a set date and time to fight. SD: I'm standing at the ATM and someone comes up to mug me. I'm in a bar, having a drink with a friend, and some drunk jackass decides he wants to be a macho man and starts trouble with me.
That video that's gone round on round on forums, of the security guard and punk...IMO, that's a perfect example of a fight, NOT SD. When you're staying there, trading shots, prolonging the situation, to me, that is not SD.
As I said, that is what I feel. If you or anyone else chooses to disagree, that's fine. I'm not claiming that my answer is "THE" answer. However, I would be interested in hearing your definition of fighting vs. SD.
We keep going around and around in different discussions here with people arguing from different ideas of what self-defense means. Here is a recent thread I started to try clarifying the language we are using.
RTKDCMB
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Quite simply, one is a choice, the other is not. Can you guess which one?
There is always a small ie. very, very, very, very small chance that some thing would work. (very small) However, think back in history about the myth of the flying side kick being utilized to unhorse a rider. Okay, say you are in battle. Typically wearing armor and carrying weapons. Why the hell would you ever try to utilize a flying side kick to unhorse someone. He would more than likely have a sword, spear, etc. You would probably be wearing armor which would be weighing you down. So take that into account and it become pretty unlikely if not impossible. Then say you have no armor and no weapons. You still have the fact that your opponent is on higher ground on that horse. Better to seek out a weapon, have a weapon than to attempt a flying side kick more than likely into a guy with at the least a sword. All of this does not take into effect just the size of horses in general and how high you would have to jump probably just to hit the waist of the person on horseback. (all of this takes into account the size of horses in Korea/China and also the size of the people in that area in that time frame) Not to mention if you do not hit it perfectly that horse itself will stomp you into the ground after you land. Heck, even if the rider is not paying attention to you that horse might be and would back kick your *** in the air twenty feet away. I know one of my old horse's would probably have picked you out of the air if you came flying at them. They are lighting fast and gigantic animals!!! Now anything is possible... Just this is such a low probability of working. Imagine yourself on a small hill, surrounded by people fighting with three foot long, razor sharp swords on horseback. You for whatever reason you have lost all of your weapons. Your first choice is to do a flying side kick on someone on a horse who is swinging a three foot razor long object around? Personally, I think I would be looking for a dropped weapon first like a spear even if the end is broken off! Now, extrapolate the flying roundhouse we saw in the cage which is a very sanitized area and try to perform it off a wall. Once again everything has to go perfect. It is such a high probability that you jump to the wall and fall on your *** or even if you execute the kick perfectly the vectors are off by a quarter of an inch and you miss your target. Or you hit your target and it does absolutely no damage. How many times have you seen someone kicked in the head with say a roundhouse kick and it have no effect at all. I have seen this hundreds of times and also I have been kicked in the head myself many times, walked right through it and punched the other guy in the face and knocked them to the floor. In combat utilize high probability of success moves. Leave the low, low, low probability moves out. Having said all of the above blindsiding someone with a flying side kick is not a low probability move as the videos show. Just not someone on horse back!
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While active debate is to be encouraged, it happens that at times tempers will wear thin, or comments (lacking the body language we all rely on so heavily) will be misinterpreted to some degree, or people will just generally irritate each other.
At those times, we find it necessary to remind members that MartialTalk is for friendly discussion, and ask that the conversation be kept friendly, polite, and professional.
If that doesn't work, we whack people with a big stick. Let's avoid that, shall we?
Thank you.
Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
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I would be interested in hearing your definition of fighting vs. SD.
I had some interested discussion with my guys yesterday. Here were 2 different personal experienced that one of my guys had that may define the difference.
SD - He walked in an alley, someone attacked him. He use his wrestling skill to control him. His opponent attacked him 3 times. He was successfully controlled his opponent's all 3 times. His opponent lose confidence and interest. The fight ended there and nobody got hurt.
fighting - He got into a fight. he punched at his opponent's face and broke his opponent's nose. Even if his opponent didn't feel like to continue that fight. His opponent fought back with everything he got. the fought got into very ugly.
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drop bear
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Flying kick might be used as a blindside a lot.
But there seems to be a lot of opportunities to blindside people as well.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nity03Gj2cg
But there seems to be a lot of opportunities to blindside people as well.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nity03Gj2cg
Your opponent's 45 degree downward flying side kick (with all his body weight behind it), aiming at your leading leg knee joint can be the most scary entering strategy that your opponent applies on you. Just to think that a 200 lb of weight is going to drop on your knee joint, it will put you in "defense" mode and that's for sure.
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