flying kicks for the streets.

[K-man]

See this is the interesting thing between perception and reality.

Take that knee kick thread. Not one actual example of a knee kicked out. But because it seems intuitive it makes sense as a self defence move. And I agree that knee kick has merit.

But what have we now four flying kicks used on the street. But they have no worth because we believe they don't.

Flying kick.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P6t94e_IgDE

Interesting how people think isn't it.

There are many things I teach in karate and Krav that if used inappropriately could land you in jail. In America there is a stand your ground law.

A stand-your-ground law is a type of self-defense law that gives individuals the right to use deadly force to defend themselves without any requirement to evade or retreat from a dangerous situation. It is law in certain jurisdictions within the United States. The basis may lie in either statutory law or common law precedents or both. One key distinction is whether the concept applies only to defending lawfully occupied locations. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations, and the stand-your-ground law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention, and arrest. A defense, including an affirmative defense, is a fact or set of facts that may avoid or mitigate the adverse legal consequences of the defendant's otherwise unlawful conduct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

We don't have that protection here. Until recently we had the law of reasonable force which is still there but now if you have the option of leaving without fighting and you decide fight instead of flight the odds are no longer in your favour. If you hurt someone it is odds on you will also face a civil law suit, even if you are technically in the right.

So hypothetically I am in a position where I consider I am in danger. The attacker comes at me and in the scuffle I 'accidentally' take out his leg. I say I really don't know what happened and the witnesses testify I was attacked. Reasonable chance there will be no repercussions although I could still face civil proceedings. Case two ... same guy mouthing of at me from a distance. I run at him, kick him in the chest, he falls and hits his head. He now lives in a wheelchair. The witnesses describe this incident to the court and describe how I ran at this guy and jumped at him. Guess who will be the guest of the State for a number of years.

There is fighting and there is self defence. Just make sure you know the difference.
:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No rules in a street fight. What works works.

Your first sentence is 100% correct, which makes me wonder again why you'd post a sparring video that used rule sets and artificial environments as proof for the street. Your second sentence however, in regards to the videos you posted in this thread, is 100% incorrect.

As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique. He was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture. How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him? At the moment he flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone. Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him. It only knocked him down where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys. Otherwise he would have continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?

Second video, great he knocked the guy with the knife away momentarily. If he didn't have help though...let's see, he's flat on his back, slow to get up and the guy still had a knife in his hands. I don't like his odds. What he did worked only because he had help. And he was very lucky the other guys actually did help. I don't think I'd want to count on other bystanders covering for my poor choices.

Last video, cop was attacked from behind by a scumbag coward. Where is the self defense? And the cop regained his feet rather quickly and I assume he was probably armed and could have used the weapon had he made the choice to do so.

None of these kicks, in and of themselves were successful in neutralizing the other person. In fact, they actually made the situation worse. In each case it pushed the 'bad guy' farther away from the kicker which negated any possibility of a quick follow up. And since the kick itself didn't work AND a quick follow up shot was now out of the question AND in most cases the kicker actually put himself in a bad position (being flat on your back on the ground during an altercation is a bad position) I would say each was a failure.

What works works...unless it doesn't.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In the videos shown you see without fail the flying kick used as a blind side move. Meaning that the opponent either wasn't looking or became distracted. The flying kick would work just fine in that situation. That is what it is really designed for not a head on confrontation where the opponent is able to see it coming.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have seen flying kicks done in the street a couple of times. The results where on opposite sides of the world.
The first time the guy getting kicked went back a couple of feet , looked at the kicker and starting laughing, saying man your crazy . and then he walked away.
The other time the kick missed or was partially blocked (from my angle I could not tell) the kicker landed on his head and ended up in the hospital.
I will say it could surprise someone if it landed with force. The question is how fast a follow up would occur and how much damage the kick would do

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A flying kick would work in the street just fine if the bad guy was on horseback, since this is what the flying kick was developed for originally.



And yeah, I'm just kidding :uhyeah:

 

[drop bear]

Your first sentence is 100% correct, which makes me wonder again why you'd post a sparring video that used rule sets and artificial environments as proof for the street. Your second sentence however, in regards to the videos you posted in this thread, is 100% incorrect.

As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique. He was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture. How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him? At the moment he flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone. Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him. It only knocked him down where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys. Otherwise he would have continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?

Second video, great he knocked the guy with the knife away momentarily. If he didn't have help though...let's see, he's flat on his back, slow to get up and the guy still had a knife in his hands. I don't like his odds. What he did worked only because he had help. And he was very lucky the other guys actually did help. I don't think I'd want to count on other bystanders covering for my poor choices.

Last video, cop was attacked from behind by a scumbag coward. Where is the self defense? And the cop regained his feet rather quickly and I assume he was probably armed and could have used the weapon had he made the choice to do so.

None of these kicks, in and of themselves were successful in neutralizing the other person. In fact, they actually made the situation worse. In each case it pushed the 'bad guy' farther away from the kicker which negated any possibility of a quick follow up. And since the kick itself didn't work AND a quick follow up shot was now out of the question AND in most cases the kicker actually put himself in a bad position (being flat on your back on the ground during an altercation is a bad position) I would say each was a failure.

What works works...unless it doesn't.

Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives. Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.

And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight.
And when you say there are no rules on the street. That means flying kicks that work. Work. And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight should happen.


the police officer did not get back up. You are not commenting on what happened you are creating stories about what should happen.

And you cannot base self defence training on stories.

 

[drop bear]

I have seen flying kicks done in the street a couple of times. The results where on opposite sides of the world.
The first time the guy getting kicked went back a couple of feet , looked at the kicker and starting laughing, saying man your crazy . and then he walked away.
The other time the kick missed or was partially blocked (from my angle I could not tell) the kicker landed on his head and ended up in the hospital.
I will say it could surprise someone if it landed with force. The question is how fast a follow up would occur and how much damage the kick would do

I have seen them in group fights more than anything. Where it lends itself to that sort of dynamic entry. Some people don't pull them off that is a given.

 

[drop bear]

In the videos shown you see without fail the flying kick used as a blind side move. Meaning that the opponent either wasn't looking or became distracted. The flying kick would work just fine in that situation. That is what it is really designed for not a head on confrontation where the opponent is able to see it coming.

Flying kick face on.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM

 

[drop bear]

There are many things I teach in karate and Krav that if used inappropriately could land you in jail. In America there is a stand your ground law.

We don't have that protection here. Until recently we had the law of reasonable force which is still there but now if you have the option of leaving without fighting and you decide fight instead of flight the odds are no longer in your favour. If you hurt someone it is odds on you will also face a civil law suit, even if you are technically in the right.

So hypothetically I am in a position where I consider I am in danger. The attacker comes at me and in the scuffle I 'accidentally' take out his leg. I say I really don't know what happened and the witnesses testify I was attacked. Reasonable chance there will be no repercussions although I could still face civil proceedings. Case two ... same guy mouthing of at me from a distance. I run at him, kick him in the chest, he falls and hits his head. He now lives in a wheelchair. The witnesses describe this incident to the court and describe how I ran at this guy and jumped at him. Guess who will be the guest of the State for a number of years.

There is fighting and there is self defence. Just make sure you know the difference.
:asian:

And that is your perception of the law or the reality?

Reality would be showing a case study. Like flying headbutt guy.

 

[K-man]

Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives. Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.

And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight.
And when you say there are no rules on the street. That means flying kicks that work. Work. And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight should happen.

the police officer did not get back up. You are not commenting on what happened you are creating stories about what should happen.

And you cannot base self defence training on stories.

I thought we had agreed that sparring wasn't the only way to train but I guess you just threw that one out. The sort of circular arguement we have had from the minority of people who can't see beyond their MMA training.

As to the rules of a street fight. You had better tick all the boxes pertaining to the laws of your state. You can fight within the law and there is a big difference between what you can do in the ring and what you can do on the street, and when.

A man has been sentenced to a maximum of 16 years in prison for the murder of a man he punched during a Sydney street fight.Adam James Matthews, 38, was jailed for at least 11 years in the NSW Supreme Court on Monday for the murder of Scott Miller whom he punched during a row in Darlinghurst in February 2011.
The court heard that at the time of the fight and unknown to both men, Mr Miller had a brain aneurysm.
During the fight, a blow by Matthews caused the aneurysm to burst, resulting in Mr Miller suffering a brain haemorrhage.


http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/street-fi...eadly-punch-20130527-2n69f.html#ixzz2w6hjg3hT

A WARRNAMBOOL man who punched a teenager less than a week after receiving a final chance in court will spend three months in prison.


Trent Van Kempen, 21, of Toal Drive, Warrnambool pleaded guilty to unlawful assault in Warrnambool Magistrates Court on Tuesday.
http://www.standard.net.au/story/71308/warrnambool-street-fighter-back-in-prison/

As to your videos, none have been SD. Sure, you can use a jumping kick in a fight but whether it gets you into trouble or not is the question. And its effectiveness is dependant on whether it works or not. Personally, I would keep it for kicking people off horses.

Flying kick face on.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM

I could have sworn this fight isn't a street fight but maybe my perception is wrong. Wasn't the thread about street fighting?

And that is your perception of the law or the reality?

Reality would be showing a case study. Like flying headbutt guy.

What if we use the example of an MMA fighter on the street ...

According to information tendered in court, McNeil had just left the Punchbowl bar in Kings Cross with his girlfriend when he got into a verbal altercation with two young men and an unidentified boy, who the accused claimed tried to sell him drugs.
After allegedly telling them he was a mixed martial arts fighter, McNeil struck the boy before punching both of his friends, causing them to fall to the ground, the court heard.
As the boy ran one way, the two men ran down the street and attempted to hide behind Mr Christie, who was then allegedly targeted by McNeil.
When Daniel Christie's brother Peter tried to intervene, McNeil then turned on him, allegedly punching him and splitting his lip.
McNeil, 25, faced Parramatta Bail Court via videolink on Wednesday where he cried as he was refused bail.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/01/04/11/10/alleged-king-hitter-s-criminal-record-revealed

And the reason the law has changed ...

Since 2000 at least 90 Australians have died after a single punch to the head. A larger unknown number of young men have been left permanently and catastrophically brain damaged or, as Kaye describes it, left in a ”permanent living hell”.http://www.stepbackthink.org/2014/03/entering-a-living-hell-from-just-one-punch/

No mate. Reality is consulting legal people to make sure your understanding of the law is up to date before you teach things to people that could put them in jail. You obviously don't teach SD, so your understanding is your perception and it is wrong.
:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives.

In your opinion. There are many of us here with far more experience that have tried to explain to you why. Some of us that actually fight violent, resisting bad people on an all too frequent basis (at least weekly if not daily). I do not spar, I use scenario-based training and this is how I teach. I would never use as inefficient mode of training as sparring. And I have fought bad guys for probably longer than you've been alive I would wager.

Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.

Your first video offering in the other thread was a couple of guys dancing around on padded mats. That is not a street fight. The videos in this thread are, in two cases a mob action and in the other a guy getting really lucky he didn't get himself or someone else killed. Not much in the way of proving anything.

And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight.

We must be watching different videos. They were ALL failures because in each case they;

• Did not neutralize the other person.
• Required other people to jump in to finish the 'fight'.
• All the reasons I've already listed that apparently you've missed. There posted above.

And when you say there are no rules on the street.

This is an incomplete sentence. Was there a question attached to this?

That means flying kicks that work. Work.

Ah, I see. This was supposed to be attached to the other sentence. May I suggest the use of commas? In answer to the question, yes flying kicks that work...work. Too bad you've not posted video of ones that worked. The videos you posted are the exact opposite of something that worked.

And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight should happen.

Once again you're not really understanding what you've looked at in the video or the comments of those with more experience than you. I fail to understand why you would even try to suggest these worked? As I've mentioned above;

As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique. He was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture. How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him? At the moment he flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone. Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him. It only knocked him down where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys. Otherwise he would have continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?

Second video, great he knocked the guy with the knife away momentarily. If he didn't have help though...let's see, he's flat on his back, slow to get up and the guy still had a knife in his hands. I don't like his odds. What he did worked only because he had help. And he was very lucky the other guys actually did help. I don't think I'd want to count on other bystanders covering for my poor choices.

Last video, cop was attacked from behind by a scumbag coward. Where is the self defense? And the cop regained his feet rather quickly and I assume he was probably armed and could have used the weapon had he made the choice to do so.

None of these kicks, in and of themselves were successful in neutralizing the other person. In fact, they actually made the situation worse. In each case it pushed the 'bad guy' farther away from the kicker which negated any possibility of a quick follow up. And since the kick itself didn't work AND a quick follow up shot was now out of the question AND in most cases the kicker actually put himself in a bad position (being flat on your back on the ground during an altercation is a bad position) I would say each was a failure.

What works works...unless it doesn't.

Sorry, but you simply cannot refute what I've said (and several others) in regards to the effectiveness of the 'flying kicks' used in your video offering.

he police officer did not get back up.

Clearly your either not watching the same videos as the rest of us...or your just watching with your eyes closed. The police officer regains his feet at the 25 second mark, walks over and picks up his hat and then appears to walk into the building when the video stops. :uhohh:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Flying kick face on.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM

Flying roundhouse kick used off a cage/wall. Not a flying side kick used head on. Plus that particular video game kick is a one in a million shot and not the norm. 99 times out of 100 that kicks misses and or if it hits does almost no damage.


The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth. Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.

 

[K-man]

The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth. Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.

Damn! And I bet you don't believe in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy either.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth. Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.

Well it was a Shetland pony you see, and I had a ladder....:s111:

 

[drop bear]

I thought we had agreed that sparring wasn't the only way to train but I guess you just threw that one out. The sort of circular arguement we have had from the minority of people who can't see beyond their MMA training.

As to the rules of a street fight. You had better tick all the boxes pertaining to the laws of your state. You can fight within the law and there is a big difference between what you can do in the ring and what you can do on the street, and when.







As to your videos, none have been SD. Sure, you can use a jumping kick in a fight but whether it gets you into trouble or not is the question. And its effectiveness is dependant on whether it works or not. Personally, I would keep it for kicking people off horses.
I could have sworn this fight isn't a street fight but maybe my perception is wrong. Wasn't the thread about street fighting?


What if we use the example of an MMA fighter on the street ...



And the reason the law has changed ...



No mate. Reality is consulting legal people to make sure your understanding of the law is up to date before you teach things to people that could put them in jail. You obviously don't teach SD, so your understanding is your perception and it is wrong.
:asian:

You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway. Let's just look at that. Actual videos of self defence and street fighting and you are trying to tell me they are not actual examples AF self defence and street fighting. I am sorry but that makes no sense at all.

You need to stop bashing mma if you have an issue with it fine. But when say a technique is also a pretty standard tma one as well. You just show that you don't really understand any of the styles you are commenting on.

I have not bashed your style there are elements of it I disagree with but it is your own closed mind that is creating this conflict. You are making up stories.
Stories about me.
Stories about self defence.
Stories about what is defendable in court.

I don't understand these personal and unfounded attacks.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth. Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.

Why can't they jump off a hill, a wall, a roof or a small cliff as the horseman rides by?

 

[RTKDCMB]

You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway. Let's just look at that. Actual videos of self defence and street fighting and you are trying to tell me they are not actual examples AF self defence and street fighting. I am sorry but that makes no sense at all.

Street fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, those videos were all of street fighting and not self defense, which was the point that K-man was trying to make.

 

[drop bear]

In your opinion. There are many of us here with far more experience that have tried to explain to you why. Some of us that actually fight violent, resisting bad people on an all too frequent basis (at least weekly if not daily). I do not spar, I use scenario-based training and this is how I teach. I would never use as inefficient mode of training as sparring. And I have fought bad guys for probably longer than you've been alive I would wager.



Your first video offering in the other thread was a couple of guys dancing around on padded mats. That is not a street fight. The videos in this thread are, in two cases a mob action and in the other a guy getting really lucky he didn't get himself or someone else killed. Not much in the way of proving anything.


We must be watching different videos. They were ALL failures because in each case they;

• Did not neutralize the other person.
• Required other people to jump in to finish the 'fight'.
• All the reasons I've already listed that apparently you've missed. There posted above.

This is an incomplete sentence. Was there a question attached to this?



Ah, I see. This was supposed to be attached to the other sentence. May I suggest the use of commas? In answer to the question, yes flying kicks that work...work. Too bad you've not posted video of ones that worked. The videos you posted are the exact opposite of something that worked.



Once again you're not really understanding what you've looked at in the video or the comments of those with more experience than you. I fail to understand why you would even try to suggest these worked? As I've mentioned above;



Sorry, but you simply cannot refute what I've said (and several others) in regards to the effectiveness of the 'flying kicks' used in your video offering.



Clearly your either not watching the same videos as the rest of us...or your just watching with your eyes closed. The police officer regains his feet at the 25 second mark, walks over and picks up his hat and then appears to walk into the building when the video stops. :uhohh:

You don't have more experience than me. I have bounced for fifteen years. That is the same violent offenders on the same weekly basis without the tool belt. So you need to stop your appeal to authority.

If your argument is that the flying kicks don't work under different conditions than they did work then you are not making sense. If there were people to capitalise on that kick. That is because that happens in a street fight. You know why?

No rules.

If a person has his back turned and that worked.

No rules.

If the guy who did the kick won. Then that kick worked.

As an experienced professional you must realise you don't have to follow the rules of what would work. You just have to go home with your head on your shoulders.

Here is some advice from someone who has spent some time in street fights. They do not always turn out like they are supposed to they can be messy.

The last time I got into a fight.(was a few weeks ago now. I kneed the crap out of a guy. Was holding him for the cops.and by accident the cop handcuffed me. Because he thought it was the other guys arm)

Which is fine because in an actual fight there are no rules and strange stuff happens.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You don't have more experience than me. I have bounced for fifteen years. That is the same violent offenders on the same weekly basis without the tool belt. So you need to stop your appeal to authority.

Perhaps you should read his profile before you decide who has more experience, especially the training section (Began 1975).

 

[K-man]

You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway.

Street fights happen. Why would I say they don't?

Let's just look at that. Actual videos of self defence and street fighting and you are trying to tell me they are not actual examples AF self defence and street fighting. I am sorry but that makes no sense at all.

I never said your videos weren't street fights (apart from the one that was in a ring).What I did say, and I will repeat ... none of your videos showed self defence.

You need to stop bashing mma if you have an issue with it fine. But when say a technique is also a pretty standard tma one as well. You just show that you don't really understand any of the styles you are commenting on.

Poleeze!!! I have never bashed MMA. It is one of the more complete arts around. It is more intense than most MAs out there. What would I bash? However, I will have a go at the posts of any MMA practitioner who makes the sort of statements that have a go at other MAs or mine in particular. And I will dismiss out of hand any posts that suggest that MMA training is the only effective training. I will accept without question that MMA training is the best training for MMA but I will never accept that MMA training is the best training for self defence. Now, are you really suggesting I am not qualified to comment on the MAs I instruct? Are you really suggesting that after 8 years training I am not qualified to comment on Aikido?

I have not bashed your style there are elements of it I disagree with but it is your own closed mind that is creating this conflict.

OK, what of my styles are you referring to? They teach Krav to military and SWAT. They teach Systema to Russian Special Forces. They teach Aikido to the Tokyo police and other forces too. There is nothing in those systems that I don't teach my Karate guys. I reckon that's pretty solid. I have been taught by some of the top guys in the world including Bas Rutten, an MMA guy you might have come across. I would have thought the fact that I have trained across the board would indicate an open mind, not closed.

You are making up stories.
Which one? I put up some hypotheticals ... the rest I included the references. Are you suggesting the newspapers are not printing the facts?

Stories about me.
I don't know you. How am I making up stories about you?

Stories about self defence.
I teach self defence as do a lot of other people on this forum. I can't recall disagreeing with any of them, yet you will not listen to anything they say and they are saying the same things I am saying.

Stories about what is defendable in court.
I have not made up anything. If I have given a hypothetical I have said so. The rest is either actual court cases with reference or the laws as they have been interpreted by serving police officers and solicitors defending assault charges in court. If you can show anything that I have said that is wrong please feel free to point it out.

I don't understand these personal and unfounded attacks.

If you are taking personal offence then I apologise. Nothing here is about you and it is not about MMA. If people post misinformation or have a go at other people or other styles then I will challenge that. You have told us that you have fought black belts on the street and handled them easily. You have told us that you have trained with black belts in your gym and found them easier to handle than untrained people of the street. You have called other black belts a joke and you have told me that my training is not effective because we don't spar the way you do. I teach self defence yet you tell me I don't really understand what I am commenting on when I challenge your interpretation of what constitutes self defence. And you accuse me of personal and unfounded attacks. Really?
:asian: