Flawed Forms?

[Disco]

The Taeguek / WTF forms. Have you found movements in the forms that you would consider wrong?

 

[oldnewbie]

I guess it would depend on your opion of wrong.

There have been several times in my Shotokan katas/forms, that I have thought a move had no purpose...until I was shown one. Then the light bulb came on

Sometimes we see errors that are actually our lack of understanding showing.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

You make the call:

We all know or have been taught that when doing a form, you are to imagine yourself facing an attacker. With that as a mindset, you are attacked to right. You make the movements to defend and counter. Your next attack comes from behind you. So you now have to turn 180 to the right to face your attacker (this is the dictates of the form). What defense would or should you use as you come around to face your new attacker? Again, the dictates of the form stipulate that you are using arm blocks against a punch. Would you use (remember the turning position), (a) A right hand inside middle block or (b) A right hand outside middle block? Again, keep in mind that the attack is ongoing and rapid and the turning position you are using to face the new attack.

 

[MountainSage]

I was practicing the taegueks last night and I have trouble finding the usefullness of the tiger stance in Taeguek 7. I can only see that using that particular stance reduces stability and add nothing to power unless a person was to jump forward on the backfist strike. The other is movement series 10, on Taeguek 4. the cross body out to in block makes no sense and puts the body out of balance and leaves your sides unprotected.


Mountainsage

 

[Langdow]

MS,
Taegeuk 7, think of the tiger stance as a drawing the leg in to take away a target. If right from the start you turn left and draw your left into the tiger stance while blocking, you can think of the application as a surprised attack and just gettin the heck outta the way, attacking, and then pulling a target away again.

Taegeuk 4, instead of an out to in block, why not an out to in strike? Your body is already pulling in one direction with the other arm, why not pull a person into yourself after the kick and then strike with your hammerfist once you have him pulled into range?

Just throwin out ideas here. Anyone have other applications?

 

[MountainSage]

Langdow,
Makes sense to me. The taeguek 4 explaination makes more sense than what the "experts" say it is the correct movement. A block in that situation would be weak at best, but a strike would get a person attention.

Mountainsage

 

[Langdow]

I find that most of the blocks in TKD are hard enough you can translate them as strikes if you want. S/D scenerio use the block to disable an attacking limb instead of parry or trap. Hard to continue a fight with an arm that won't work.

 

[karatekid1975]

Good topic I have admit at some point, I thought the Taegeuks didn't make any sense. But like oldnewbie said, it doesn't make sense till you are shown different. I also agree with Langdow.

Anyways, I'd like to know more applications.

 

[oldnewbie]

Another point to consider,

Forms are also taught to create muscle memory. You would not use that exact form during a sparring match, but you could use pieces. Rather than thinking of the proper defense, your muscles should react.

Also, some portions of the forms could be expanded on as you advance. For instance, in one of the Heian katas, just prior to a high block, the opposiste hand is thrust into the air???
It seemed silly to me, until I was shown that it "could" be interpreted to be a grab to the hair of my opponent, and the high block "could" be an elbow stike to the face....

I guess the saying... walk before you run... has value here

 

[Disco]

While I understand were many are coming from in regards to their positioning on forms, the initial value of forms, as was taught to me, was to use as a training tool against an imaginery attacker. The particular forms in question, have no layering adapation to them. Under those constraints, we are dealing with a simplistic training exercise. As for developing muscle memory, I will use golf as an example. You can swing a golf club till your blue in the face and yes your muscles will adhear to that training. But, if you are swinging incorrectly, you have accomplished nothing productive. In fact you will regress with the actual application of using an incorrect swing. Now to correlate to MA Forms. What good is memorizing a move that could get you in trouble?
EXAMPLE: You have an attacker on your right side. The attacker throws a punch. You turn right to defend. In turning right to face the attacker and defend against the punch, do you (a) make the full turn so now you are facing the attacker and then proceed to deploy an inside right middle block or (b) In the process of turning towards the attack, you deploy an outside right middle block as you are turning?

Perhaps I have to much of a puritanical outlook on this subject. But I feel that training should be all inclusive to allow you to survive an altercation. Forms are a training tool that should be correct in adaptation so they can be correct in application. Interpertations of what a movement "could be" hold little value for me. A high block and an elbow strike are apples and oranges to my way of thinking. No disrespect intended, just different opinions.

As for the above example, what would be your choice? :asian:

 

[MountainSage]

I see great value in learning forms in there pure form, yet being too strict in application after attain a level of skill, ie 1st BB, is limiting and short sighted, no offense intended. I view a website some time ago that the instructor had student that had achieved 1st BB redo the classic forms with 3 variation of each movement that would be equally effect. The point being that there are other options. I remember a quote, " The only constant in this world is change."


Mountainsage

 

[oldnewbie]

Disco,

In answering your question, I would HOPE that I would use the outside block as I was turning, because it doesn't open me up...but in saying that, in that situation, I could over-rotate, my opponent could move, etc. so that when the actual time comes, I have to use the inside. So was my time wasted on the Form, I don't think so.

My point is this.. Forms are great, (I personally love them ), but as my sensi keeps driving into my head, you don't do forms when you spar. To think of the Forms as the attacker was there is geat for putting the emotion/enthusiasm in the form, but that's where we stop.

Also, it is a sign of a good MA to look at what you do and seek understanding, not just repeat what you've been taught.

Most of the forms we do now, have been "corrected" over time, or bits added, etc.

If I've missed the point again, I am sorry. I hope some of my rantings were helpful.

:asian:

 

[fissure]

The particular forms in question, have no layering adapation to them.

I know were you are comming from!
I have only trained with a handful of TKD people who use any kind of alternate application type training. Application work is far more rampent in Japanese arts from my experience. When I started out in Shotokan, a long time ago, we were taught the type of "layering" of application you speak of. When I went into TKD, the app. were the same as we used the same forms : Pyung-An/Heian, Basai/Balsek,ect.
When the Taeguek/Palgwae forms were introduced, I was left out in the cold so to speak.Most TKD "Grandmasters" did no app. training with the old forms - and none that I no of teach any for the new forms.
However, once you have the door opened for you on the alternate application idea, it is just a matter of using it on any type of form. Some of the newer forms are fairly easy to look at in this way. Taebek, the 3rd Dan form, has many sequences taken right out of the Heian/PyungAn forms. For others you have to use the guidelines for 'reverse engineering" (hip term among Karateka for alternate apps.!) when looking at these new TKD poomse.
I've found this kind of idea either is loved or hated by most MAists!For some it opens up whole avenues of thought and training and for others it really pisses them off!
If you do venture into app. work, pay attention to the "chamber" of you movements, especially the "blocking" ones.Good luck.

 

[Disco]

You are correct in wanting to use the outside block. That would be the first and logical adaptation for the movement in question. And yes as you pointed out that one could over-rotate and have to then use an inside block. But that is my point. They are using a movement that should be secondary in application and making it primary. To me that is wrong and there are a few others throughout the Taeguek's. The Taeguek's have very basic applications. Straight out blocking and counter's. Should'nt the correct movement be applicable to your training? And agreed, you don't do forms when you spar. You also don't spar when you fight. The forms were/are designed to be practical for combat. In all the sparing I have seen and been involved in, there was little if any blocking to speak of. Trying to score points and trying to break somebodies arm with a good hard block are two different animals. Thanks for all the input so far. :asian:

 

[oldnewbie]

They are using a movement that should be secondary in application and making it primary. To me that is wrong...

I understand, and agree that is does not make sense to me either... Don't have any other answer for you exept to shrug my shoulders..I try to give the forms the benefit of doubt when I come upon something like this. Maybe it was changed at some point for a reason. Do these forms have any history you could look up? (No disrespect to your instructor)

On an up note, it's been fun having a great discussion about it.
Last time I brought up a similar question, it didn't get very far...

 

[Disco]

From what I have heard on some TKD sites, there is a rumor afoot that the WTF/KKW is looking to revamp the Taeguek Forms. Apparently there has been some negitive feedback from the field. This may stem from the acceptance of using the Palgae Forms in competition. a couple of years ago. Have no idea why the addition of the Palgae's was allowed. The Taeguek's were to replace the Palgae's, now their going backwards???

Anyway, I too just accepted the forms at face value and tried to give the benefit of the doubt. Just to many new students questioning the movements. Really can't blame them, they see for themselves the contradiction in application.

Glad to see input on this discussion also. Thanks everybody, now lets all go and get a :drinkbeer for the holidays