Fixing the training model

[now disabled]

Where does apathy sit on the "could (/not) care less" scale?

He the translator

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Where does apathy sit on the "could (/not) care less" scale?

Try saying “l could care ...” and then sort of trail off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I sort of see your point with this - not that I believe in ntko any more than the celestial teapot mind...

Yet oddly, no-touch techniques are taught and used at all levels in some arts - only they refer to them as "feints" or similar.

A no-touch fake isn't the same as expecting it to have a dramatic effect. And those feints are usually supported by the fact that they'll work on someone who doesn't know what effect they're supposed to have - usually work better on them, in fact.

 

[Steve]

Where does apathy sit on the "could (/not) care less" scale?

Morrissey, "I could care...."

 

[Steve]

Try saying “l could care ...” and then sort of trail off.

i was too slow....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Re-read the rest of my reply. Even if they teach the no-touch KO in a different class, the underlying self-delusion mindset can very easily carry over into their BJJ (just in a less obvious fashion).

I'd be more concerned about what it says of their students' relationship to the material. One of the things I depend upon to keep me honest is that students don't fall down when I haven't yet thrown them, etc. - like you mentioned in a prior post. If his students are falling down for the no-touch, I'd have to be concerned whether his BJJ students are doing the same thing with his arm bar and such.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, it's an important distinction - but I've not seen it made before.

It's more usually referred to as "no-touch techniques", which by definition really includes the stuff that actually works, as well as the knock outs...



That said, I came within a mile of knocking someone out without touching them the other day - during step sparring my opponent attempted an upward elbow, managed to punch herself in the ear really quite hard and had to have a little break

Now, if you could only manage to make that predictable. That'd be an excellent self-defense technique. Heck, you could use it without provocation, and never get in trouble, so long as there were cameras or witnesses to show that they hit themselves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where does apathy sit on the "could (/not) care less" scale?

Meh, who cares?

 

[now disabled]

Morrissey, "I could care...."

Oh now we are getting into a person that can get and does get extremely deep in his thoughts lol.......................................................Obviously you get him others may well not

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Similar to Tony, I've used no touch in fencing before. I'd let the person advance on me, assuming for a counter attack, when i see i won't get it but they overextend. I avoid (sometimes parry) their blade and launch into some combination of balestra (a little jump thing) advance (moving forwards) and a fleche (kind of sideways run). Sometimes it would disorient them and theyd stall, letting me get the point, but sometimes they would actually fall backwards. I found it hilarious. Have yet to do the same thing empty handed though

 

[now disabled]

Similar to Tony, I've used no touch in fencing before. I'd let the person advance on me, assuming for a counter attack, when i see i won't get it but they overextend. I avoid (sometimes parry) their blade and launch into some combination of balestra (a little jump thing) advance (moving forwards) and a fleche (kind of sideways run). Sometimes it would disorient them and theyd stall, letting me get the point, but sometimes they would actually fall backwards. I found it hilarious. Have yet to do the same thing empty handed though

Is that really no touch or could it be more you blended with your opponent and used what they were doing to facilitate the outcome ?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is that really no touch or could it be more you blended with your opponent and used what they were doing to facilitate the outcome ?

Well, during the times that they fell, i got them to stumble and fall over without touching them. To me that sounds exactly like a no touch throw.

 

[now disabled]

Well, during the times that they fell, i got them to stumble and fall over without touching them. To me that sounds exactly like a no touch throw.

Ok .....To me it more you used the skill you had, to use what they gave you ...........but I accept your view on it

 

[Tez3]

I'd have to be concerned whether his BJJ students are doing the same thing with his arm bar and such.

I've no idea whether they would or wouldn't, my point though is that if he is teaching honestly then it's not fraud. He can certainly be teaching incompetently, badly, wrongly and a lot of other 'lys' but if he believes he's teaching it because it works ( and he had to have been taught by someone to do it) then we cannot accuse him of defrauding anyone.

Now a lot of others are also teaching badly including some in BJJ, I won't accuse them of fraud either. I've seen BJJ people who really do think that that all other styles are inferior, something they often accuse others in martial arts of doing.

What is annoying however is some people's assumption that only they 'test' their style, only they can say their style works because of that. The assumption that all karate schools teach the same thing and that it doesn't work is ridiculous, as most know there are many styles of karate including mine, Wado Ryu which includes take downs, grappling moves etc. It did since it's inception. There is a certain kind of arrogance in thinking that one knows it all because of just a few things one has seen.

 

[pdg]

I'd be more concerned about what it says of their students' relationship to the material. One of the things I depend upon to keep me honest is that students don't fall down when I haven't yet thrown them, etc. - like you mentioned in a prior post. If his students are falling down for the no-touch, I'd have to be concerned whether his BJJ students are doing the same thing with his arm bar and such.

That'd only be a problem though if he couldn't separate the training.

Or if his students couldn't (assuming they do more than one thing, or if he offers more than one thing, or if he even trains others in nt techs over doing entertainment demos).

 

[drop bear]

Does it though, when in other classes their instruction is spot on? no touch KO's are a belief thing as is religion, are Xtian instructors techniques impinged because they sit and pray before the class for the techniques to work and they credit their wins to G-d being on their side when they fight in competitions?
if no touch KO's are taught in a self defence class how is a BJJ class where they just teach BJJ suffer, how does it impact on their other classes when this thing is only taught in one? As I've said many instructors teach BJJ, TKD, MT, Judo etc perfectly well but their Sd classes are utter rubbish especially for women.

Easy to find out though. Tell us who the guy is and we can hunt down if his bjj is any good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That'd only be a problem though if he couldn't separate the training.

Or if his students couldn't (assuming they do more than one thing, or if he offers more than one thing, or if he even trains others in nt techs over doing entertainment demos).

It's not so much about separating the training, as the mindset of the students. If he manages to engender - on purpose or by accident - the same acceptance of outcome that causes people to react to the no-touch ki/chi techniques, that could show up (again, either on purpose or by accident) in the BJJ stuff. I think that's what Tony was getting at. And that reaction from students can lead to sloppy technique, because he would be able to get away with arm bars and such that similarly skilled people could escape, but which his students cannot/would not.

It's why I said I'd have to be extra-skeptical looking at the rest of what someone does if they incorporate anything like no-touch ki stuff. I've seen easily defeatable techniques taught (and accepted by students) as undefeatable, because of trained mindsets. Once you get to that point, a lot of small, but important stuff often goes out the window.

 

[Hanzou]

Well you and I know it's nonsense but there's a fair few people out there who don't think it is. There's a lot of people who believe the world is flat, that dinosaurs are the work of the devil and that the world is only 5000 years old, there's no accounting for what people believe in. You can't say that someone who teaches something that we know is nonsense is a fraud.

So if some guy was scamming your family member out of money, would it be fraud if your family member didn't realize that they were getting scammed and thought the con-man was a nice guy?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So if some guy was scamming your family member out of money, would it be fraud if your family member didn't realize that they were getting scammed and thought the con-man was a nice guy?

Not if someone didn't know they were committing fraud. The people near the bottom of the pyramid scheme who don't realize it's a pyramid scheme thing to get you to join aren't being criminals, just stupid.

 

[Hanzou]

Not if someone didn't know they were committing fraud. The people near the bottom of the pyramid scheme who don't realize it's a pyramid scheme thing to get you to join aren't being criminals, just stupid.

YOU know they're committing fraud against your family. That's my point.