Fixing the training model
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
That's a lot different than no-touch bjj though.
If I was the world's best chi sau guy but I also gave online courses in nietschean philosophy on the side, that doesn't mean I teach ubermench chi sau.
I can’t even imagine what no-touch BJJ would look like, so I didn’t think Tez was referring to such a thing.
She said “no-touch KO”. That’s a purported martial application that is based, so far as I’ve been able to tell, on psychologically conditioning students to take a dive without realizing they are doing so. (Frequently the instructor buys into the delusion as well. )An instructor who will do that to such an extent in one area of their training will do it in another.
The very foundation of BJJ lies in continually testing what is taught. If my students start to unconsciously let me get away with stuff in sparring because they believe I have mystical powers, then I’m going to start getting sloppy, missing key details, having too much faith in low-percentage moves, thinking I understand the techniques better than I actually do. In turn, I’ll pass that degraded understanding on to my students. Even if I’m still teaching “real” techniques, the underpinnings of those techniques have been weakened. That’s why I correct my students when they let me get away with stuff I shouldn’t so that they can give me a harder time next time around.
An instructor who teaches “no-touch KOs” is going the opposite direction. Their BJJ (or other martial art) will suffer as a result.
I sort of see your point with this - not that I believe in ntko any more than the celestial teapot mind...
Yet oddly, no-touch techniques are taught and used at all levels in some arts - only they refer to them as "feints" or similar.
Does it though, when in other classes their instruction is spot on? no touch KO's are a belief thing as is religion, are Xtian instructors techniques impinged because they sit and pray before the class for the techniques to work and they credit their wins to G-d being on their side when they fight in competitions?
if no touch KO's are taught in a self defence class how is a BJJ class where they just teach BJJ suffer, how does it impact on their other classes when this thing is only taught in one? As I've said many instructors teach BJJ, TKD, MT, Judo etc perfectly well but their Sd classes are utter rubbish especially for women.
now disabled
Master Black Belt
Re-read the rest of my reply. Even if they teach the no-touch KO in a different class, the underlying self-delusion mindset can very easily carry over into their BJJ (just in a less obvious fashion).
I think it depends on how deep that belief runs myself (even though you didn't ask me
)If someone gives credit to prayer for a technique working that's pretty much up to them.
If they try to impress the importance of prayer on their students and tell them they need to pray or their art will fail - well that's a different matter...
Feints are psychological tricks that can work on skilled, tough, non-cooperative opponents that you've never met before.
No-touch KOs are psychological tricks that only work on certain individuals that you've spent a long time mentally conditioning to cooperate with you. I'd say that's an important distinction.
now disabled
Master Black Belt
I think it depends on how deep that belief runs myself (even though you didn't ask me
If someone gives credit to prayer for a technique working that's pretty much up to them.
If they try to impress the importance of prayer on their students and tell them they need to pray or their art will fail - well that's a different matter...
I agree there
If people wish to believe in something then that is there own choice and if it works for them and gives them whatever they seek
now disabled
Master Black Belt
Well done and well explained
Yes the stuff that Ueshiba (just one example) did latterly was mostly done with the uke or Uke's he had used for years and there by they knew what was coming and reacted that way ...........ok staged somewhat maybe ...yes some would have been to keep their old master in the lime light. But fraud no, yes Ueshiba was and had gone to a more spiritual path and that is well recorded and documented.
Yes, it's an important distinction - but I've not seen it made before.
It's more usually referred to as "no-touch techniques", which by definition really includes the stuff that actually works, as well as the knock outs...
That said, I came within a mile of knocking someone out without touching them the other day - during step sparring my opponent attempted an upward elbow, managed to punch herself in the ear really quite hard and had to have a little break
Ah well we have all seen even BJJ people with the self delusion that it is the only style that can work so no change there then!
I've come across people like that too, I tend to be a bit of a magnet to that type, they want me to convert and find the only right way there is …. theirs of course.
If people are going to spend their lives ranting about other styles being frauds, ineffective or whatever they are going to find they have nothing else in their lives. I prefer to think it's not my business and get on with life, I have a grandbaby to knit for!!!
now disabled
Master Black Belt
I've come across people like that too, I tend to be a bit of a magnet to that type, they want me to convert and find the only right way there is …. theirs of course.
Yes those people are imo dangerous and wars have been started that way lol
I actually pulled off a "no touch throw" years ago when I was very much a beginning martial artist.That said, I came within a mile of knocking someone out without touching them the other day - during step sparring my opponent attempted an upward elbow, managed to punch herself in the ear really quite hard and had to have a little break
I was sparring a friend and had been nailing him repeatedly with long range side kicks. He lost his temper and charged at me with a flurry of punches. I (by luck more than skill) sidestepped with perfect timing and he tripped over his own feet and flew head first into a wall.
The difference between this occurrence and what's been demonstrated by certain instructors is that I recognized the "throw" had much more to do with my sparring partner being a klutz than with my slick evasive timing. Any time you see someone demonstrating the ability to pull off such a stunt consistently, it means that their uke has been encouraged to throw themselves off balance in training rather than the opposite.
OP
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
I found A picture of the no-touch BJJ instructor.
Sometimes, when I walk, I could carless.
I've been on both sides of similar occurrences.
It didn't cross my mind that either was planned, or indeed a repeatable technique. Well, not without consistent not being very good anyway
now disabled
Master Black Belt
A Bulldog lol .............that funny lol
stop texting or looking at your phone then and use your spectacles (plus cord ) then no careless lol ...oh and lamp post be safer too
OP
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'm going to start saying, "I could care more."
now disabled
Master Black Belt
really oh no don't do that
I bet you were the one that put the cinder block in my Bergen ........
Where does apathy sit on the "could (/not) care less" scale?
