Firearms training?

[AlecBeach]

Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?

 

[CB Jones]

Yes....shoot them probably multiple times until they no longer a threat.

 

[Danny T]

Yes. I know several.
Depending the situation, Distance, positioning, and other factors disarms can be an option.
Not a good one but can be done.
You've got to get close enough to be able to control the weapon while not being in the line of fire. A lot easier said than done. You've got to move a lot longer distance than the bad guy only needing to move a finger 1/2 of an inch.
What about if the bad guy never gets close enough for that to be an option?

 

[CB Jones]

Also if you fail at the disarm....

 

[oftheherd1]

Also if you fail at the disarm....

Good point.

Like any technique, one must practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more. That sounds tedious, and can be. But that should get as much or more practice as any other technique one practices from ones art.

And also, not a thing that I think even most police departments do (and harder for a school), you should have a blank round in a plugged barrel to get used to the fact that the weapon will likely fire and make a lot of noise as well as kick a bit.

EDIT: By the way AlecBeach, welcome to MT. You might want to go to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and tell us a little about yourself.

 

[Danny T]

Also if you fail at the disarm....

Yeah...goes to not being a "good option"

And also, not a thing that I think even most police departments do (and harder for a school), you should have a blank round in a plugged barrel to get used to the fact that the weapon will likely fire and make a lot of noise as well as kick a bit.

Be very careful with blank rounds and make certain you use a plugged barrel.
Most blank rounds use a plastic or wax type of wad that can seriously hurt and even kill.
Use a Battlefield or Live Fire specific type of blank designed for live fire training. These rounds have no wadding to be projected from the muzzle. However, most are designed to be used 18 inches from the muzzle.
As to kick back when grabbing a firearm it is something to be aware of but there is very little that will be transmitted into you. Loud noise, yes. Powerful kick back...very little, most is directed toward the person pulling the trigger. On a semi auto pistol I can hold the slide between my thumb and index finger with ease much less using the whole hand.

It's not the noise or kick back to be concerned with but where is the muzzle pointed.

 

[oftheherd1]

Yeah...goes to not being a "good option"

Be very careful with blank rounds and make certain you use a plugged barrel.
Most blank rounds use a plastic or wax type of wad that can seriously hurt and even kill.
Use a Battlefield or Live Fire specific type of blank designed for live fire training. These rounds have no wadding to be projected from the muzzle. However, most are designed to be used 18 inches from the muzzle.
As to kick back when grabbing a firearm it is something to be aware of but there is very little that will be transmitted into you. Loud noise, yes. Powerful kick back...very little, most is directed toward the person pulling the trigger. On a semi auto pistol I can hold the slide between my thumb and index finger with ease much less using the whole hand.

It's not the noise or kick back to be concerned with but where is the muzzle pointed.

Bolded; Good for you. But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise, along with the stress and desire to escape. Of course, even without practicing with the noise, a lot of practice will make you do it right, noise, kickback or whatever.

But I do agree with care when using blanks. Back in the day, when I was in the infantry, as I recall, our blanks had plastic or wax or something. Now the grenade launcher round was crimped.

 

[Danny T]

Bolded; Good for you. But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise, along with the stress and desire to escape. Of course, even without practicing with the noise, a lot of practice will make you do it right, noise, kickback or whatever.

But I do agree with care when using blanks. Back in the day, when I was in the infantry, as I recall, our blanks had plastic or wax or something. Now the grenade launcher round as crimped.

As with most all things 'training' is a must.
And I believe even with a little specific training most can perform such an action.
Most of the people who are in the military are average normal people who receive only a few hours of firearms training could perform the actions we are discussing with a few minutes of training.
Now I'm not advocating every one to go out and train for such because I feel there are other options that are going to be safer and of higher percentage to even get to do.

 

[WaterGal]

I did some handgun training at a range once that had mock firearms with an air cartridge in them that created a loud noise and kickback. I don't know where you'd get something like that, but I'm sure it would be much, much safer than a real gun with a blank.

 

[Buka]

Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?

Yes.

And welcome to MartialTalk, Alec.

 

[oftheherd1]

I did some handgun training at a range once that had mock firearms with an air cartridge in them that created a loud noise and kickback. I don't know where you'd get something like that, but I'm sure it would be much, much safer than a real gun with a blank.

Virtra weapons do that but I don't know if they sell the mods separately. You have to have your own weapon (real) to modify, well I guess they would sell you weapons too for a higher price. They then sell a virtual projected environment that is computer controlled. Works pretty well. But the whole setup is a little costly.

 

[Tez3]

Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?

We send in the RAF.

Welcome to MT, do you want to introduce yourself over in the Meet and Greet section?

 

[pdg]

Would you guys know how to disarm someone with a gun?

Put your finger over the end of the barrel so the bullet can't get out.

Or point over their shoulder and say "look out", then flip the safety on while they're distracted.

In either case, they'll be really confused and probably just hand the gun over because they'll think it's broken.

 

[pdg]

On a semi auto pistol I can hold the slide between my thumb and index finger with ease much less using the whole hand.

Good for you. But I suspect most people could not, both because of the kickback (depending on the weapon off course) and the accompanying noise,

On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.

The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.

Note, that doesn't stop the gun firing that time, but it stops it self loading another round.

Probably not a high value move, but if you can grab and redirect that first shot (and hold the slide with that grab) you've effectively just turned a firearm into a knuckle duster.

 

[oftheherd1]

On the majority of small to medium calibre gas operated semi auto pistols the biggest contributor to recoil (or kickback if you will) is the mass of the slide moving.

The force exerted by the gas pressure to make the slide move really isn't that large, and I'd say that if you're capable of lifting a pint to drink it you'd have sufficient hand strength to stop the slide, well, sliding.

Note, that doesn't stop the gun firing that time, but it stops it self loading another round.

Probably not a high value move, but if you can grab and redirect that first shot (and hold the slide with that grab) you've effectively just turned a firearm into a knuckle duster.

Don't a lot of (edit) techniques incorporate that into the move; directing the muzzle away from you as you seek control of the weapon?

 

[pdg]

Don't a lot of (edit) techniques incorporate that into the move; directing the muzzle away from you as you seek control of the weapon?

I can't speak for very many of the techniques, but the ones I've seen don't seem to put much weight on the grab part - it appears to be more redirect and control the arm to then control the weapon.

 

[oftheherd1]

I can't speak for very many of the techniques, but the ones I've seen don't seem to put much weight on the grab part - it appears to be more redirect and control the arm to then control the weapon.

Wow, I didn't know that. I would always want to control the weapon first so that if possible, it is never pointed at me during the rest of the technique. Wow.

 

[pdg]

Wow, I didn't know that. I would always want to control the weapon first so that if possible, it is never pointed at me during the rest of the technique. Wow.

Like I say, I have very little experience in how the techniques are 'usually' taught - I can only go off the few times I've personally seen someone demonstrate in a civilian capacity (and the comedy of YouTube)...

In those instances it was to deflect the arm, wrap it, then turn around to use both your hands to unhook their fingers from the weapon (no mention of what about their other arm and the fact you're stood there with your back to their front).

It was basically exactly what they also showed for a knife disarm...

Of course, they had a 100% success rate.

 

[Buka]

To me, disarms are far easier against a firearm than against a knife. You may have a different opinion, which is fine. I'm still struggling with knife disarms after a bajillion years.

With firearms, I disagree with concentrating on controlling the arm as opposed to the weapon. If you're controlling the arm the handgun can still go off, and if there's other people around that's a big problem. Of course, the same holds true when controlling the weapon, people around you are always in danger.

Firearms are long range weapons. If one is right close to you and you haven't yet been shot, it's kind of an invitation. It's saying, "please, oh please, take this and shove it up my ...."

There are of course caveats. If you are learning disarms from Martial Arts teachers who are not experienced with firearms it's like learning to fly a plane with someone who's never even been in a simulator. So be really careful what you believe.

And learn the mantra - "blade the body, blade the body, blade the body."

 

[oftheherd1]

Like I say, I have very little experience in how the techniques are 'usually' taught - I can only go off the few times I've personally seen someone demonstrate in a civilian capacity (and the comedy of YouTube)...

In those instances it was to deflect the arm, wrap it, then turn around to use both your hands to unhook their fingers from the weapon (no mention of what about their other arm and the fact you're stood there with your back to their front).

It was basically exactly what they also showed for a knife disarm...

Of course, they had a 100% success rate.

I agree with you and @Buka. I would say the preference is that the firearm is not pointing towards anyone. That may not always work and you have to decide if you are going to take a bullet yourself or hope for a quick different opportunity. Never any guarantee when defending against weapons. Speed and accuracy of movement is paramount. If you are not faster than your opponent, or not more accurate, you may well be in trouble.

Also, the way I was taught was not exactly to control the arm against a knife. The first concern was the knife so as not to be injured by it. We might use a wrist grab and use it to stick the knife in our attacker, or block movement of the arm with a sudo strike while simultaneously grabbing the wrist for an arm lock. But always the first consideration was not being cut or stuck with the knife.