Fighting in the Ryuha

[ronhughen]

I'm curious about what everybody thinks about the different ryuha as they relate to fighting or combat training. I'm not too familiar with what particular things come from which ryuha, but I think I can see a lot of fighting/battlefield training within kukishindinryu. Ralph shihan is one that believes that the skills being learned in the various schools are fighting skills. Personally, I got into ninjutsu to learn to protect myself and was naturally drawn to Ralph shihan as an obviously experienced fighter, but I've noticed that some have the belief the the ryuha should not be approached from a fighting perspective but merely an "art" practice (I like both, myself). Is that the difference between "budo" and "bujitsu"?

 

[r erman]

I got into ninjutsu to learn to protect myself and was naturally drawn to Ralph shihan as an obviously experienced fighter, but I've noticed that some have the belief the the ryuha should not be approached from a fighting perspective but merely an "art" practice (I like both, myself). Is that the difference between "budo" and "bujitsu"?

There is no black and white demarcation between 'do' and 'jutsu' in Japan like there is in the West. It is very easy to see such a division, but this is often because of the very simplistic definitions of 'do' being about self-perfection and 'jutsu' being self-protection.

Irregardless of whether that simple view is accurate to the japanese, I think it seems very 'jutsu' to apply technique with realistic intent and against realistic attacks/resistance, and very 'do' to explore the root kata of the systems in their historical context. This is a mental view that is hard for me to shake. Ultimately, we should be doing both if we study classical systems, so at the very least bujutsu and budo are complimentary, or flip sides of the same coin...the real debate is often which side should be the emphasis in early training?

 

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Hello Mr. Hughen,

Over the years that I have practiced I found that each of the ryuha can be effective in a combat situation. From the kyusho attacks found in the Gyokko ryu, to the locking and quick takedown maneuvers in the Takagi Yoshin ryu, each art has much to offer in the way a student can progress and defend oneself. What I have tried to follow is the following phrase Shu, Ha, Ri –Preserve, Break, Leave Behind. Here is some more information on this short phrase that packs so much punch!!

Shu (Protect)
In “protecting” one’s art, and at the simplest of understanding, each of us, have to start with the fundamentals of our art, and practice them diligently. There is no need to forget them, in fact you must master them for a true understanding of that which you practice. Training daily in the fundamentals of the sanshin no kata, happo no sabbaki, kihon happo, and the kata of the various ryuha that comprise the curriculum of budo taijutsu.

Ha (Break)
To “break” one needs to understand. Here is where I find many people lose track of the purpose of a technique. The purpose is to teach a principle that applies to a specific attack situation (kata). The purpose of varying from the technique (henka) is to expand upon your understanding, and application of a technique or principle. To break away, is the step, which begins to internalize the nature of Budo Taijutsu. Too many beginners want to start with all the fancy variations that Instructors teach or demonstrate, but yet how can they if they do not have a proper understanding of the basics.

Ri (Leave behind)
Now we come to “ri” or leave behind. The ability to leave behind technique, is one of the highest aspirations of a martial artist. We have seen Morihei Ueshiba, Hatsumi Soke, Bruce Lee, and so many others who achieved a state that, many of us dream to achieve. It is spoken of as “mushin”(no mind), the ability to deal with whatever comes. It doesn’t matter “how”, just deal with it as it happens from wherever your body is, or is going. We focus so much on what we have to do (technique), that we often lose what the ultimate purpose of the technique was (survival). Again to quote sensei Hatsumi,
“The fifth dan test, is a process for entering into “ri”, in order to grasp incomprehensible techniques, movements, forms, and thoughts which neither the opponent nor yourself understands, you leave yourself behind.”
Through diligent practice, a student (and we are all students) will gain an understanding to the insights of true budo. Not any one technique or principle, but all and none applied to the purpose of your self protection.

As a final note, Miyamoto Musashi, in the chapter titled “Void” from the “Book of Five Rings”, writes

“What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void.
People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment.
In the Way of strategy as a warrior you must study fully other martial arts and not deviate even al little from the Way of the warrior. With your spirit settled, accumulate practice day by day, hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. When your spirit is not in the least clouded, when the clouds of bewilderment clear away, there is the true void.
Until you realise the true Way, whether in Buddhism or in common sense, you may think that things are correct and in order. However, if we lood at things objectively, from the viewpoint of laws of the world, we see various doctrines departing from the true Way. Know well this spirit, and with forthrightness as the foundation and the true spirit as the Way. Enact strategy broadly, correctly and openly.
Then you will come to think of things in a wide sense and, taking the void as the Way, you will see the Way as void.
In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness.”
Twelfth day of the fifth month, second year of Shoho (1645).
Teruro Magonojo
SHINMEN MUSASHI

I hope this helps offer a different perspective to your question. As for Budo vs Bujutsu, this is a long and convoluted debate, and really got confusing when Mr. Draeger wrote his three classical books describing the Japanese martial arts.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r.severe]

Shu, Ha, Ri is a very old and very good concept of looking into what the masters are telling everyone..

I find the hobbyist, in my opinion, to be budo... in a more or less way.
This might have more meaning then going through a longer explanation.


ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[ronhughen]

Wow, Steve sensei,


Quoting the entire book of Void! I love Musahi!

Do you think this sort of skill is attained through training activities such as sparring? I think there is a big difference between doing a technique in practice with a partner . . . trying a technique in a sparrin match is quite a differnent experience . . . I can't imagine what it would be like to try to use a technique in a real fight . . . how would Omote Gyaku work in an actual fight?

-ps - Steve sensei . . . I've seen you on tapes for a long time . . . we've been training in the same school for a long time . . . strange we've never met . . but its nice to talk to you!

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Ron Sensei,

I hear only good things about you and hopefully we can cross paths sometime in the future.

Too many martial artists try to attain the skills of a master practitioner, without putting the same amount of effort and harsh training that they underwent. Can someone move like Hatsumi soke, without having the thousands of hours of intense training he has had? What about Morihei Ueshiba? Look at the softening of the art of Aikido, based on when the student might have been O Sensei's student. He didn't obtain his satori until his forties after many years of actual fighting , sparring and harsh and rigorous training. This doesn't mean just going to class and training, it includes all the research and studying, the exploration outside of your art, as well as sparring and serious intense training. Everyone, comes to the martial arts for a variety of reasons, some just for getting in shape, others to really learn to fight etc. All the paths are good, but to acheive the level of a "master student" there is no easy path. As we are only discussing the Japanese arts here, this principle is not limited to only them. Look at LaMaupin, Churchill, Westmoreland, Dempsey and so many other western fighters either with a sword, or empty hand all followed fairly true to what I have written above.

Train Hard, it is the Way!

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r.severe]

Fighting in the ryuha...
I believe when Hatsumi seseni changed bujutsu to budo he wanted more hobbyist and politicians.. in his following.
Fighters just don't pay the bills.
From the looks of it more or less the major players.. well fighters with fighting experience have went other ways..
This is a baisc sign Ron sensei that they seen the light.

The different ryuha in the Bujinkan Dojo have pragmatic forms or jissen gata.
The major problem is the attributes of the student are not there from poor training.. and this mainly comes from poor teachers.. and this mainly comes from people being ranked as shidoshi or teachers way way to soon..
So it is a vortex...

Let's talk about some of tge gata that are very useful from the different ryuha..
ok

Sounds good to me..
I will post a few..

How about you Steve sensei.. which ones do you like, ryu as well as ryu gata?
And why?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[r.severe]

Looking into the basic form of 'fudo' you can find a very effective training outline.

Fudo begins with the foe grabbing your chest area with his right hand... in a very harsh manner... setting up his follow up attack with his left punch..
As he does you cover his Right hand with your left... ever so softly.. so not to cause any change in his actions... as he strikes with his left you drop and lower the body away to your left... bringing up a right uke nagashi into his left inside wrist area... with a rapping type pop.. one that rebounds off his wrist... The feeling is very fast... you take his right wrsit in take ori... just so that he doesn't feel it till he is trappedby it's painful bend... with the body already lowered you move quickly under his right arm so to position yourself at his side.. just so at an angle.. grabbing his right shoulder with your right hand... almost at the same time you smash your left foot into the foes calf.. making his drop...

I feel this is a very good form for research...
What forms do you like?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Shihan Ralph,

Sorry for the delayed response, was off for training this weekend.

Some of my favorite kata to explore are: Kaigo Kudaki, Ura Ude Ori(Takagi Yoshin ryu), Koku(Gyokko ryu), Koyoko (Koto ryu), several more from the Shinden fudo ryu, as well as the Dakentaijutsu gata of the Kukishinden ryu.

Train Hard it is the Way!
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r.severe]

The major problem I find with most of the throws in a few forms are they almost all the time cannot be done under 'real time' conflicts...

Mainly koshi nage, gyaku koshi nage, ura katate nage, seoi nage,........

This is one of those forms...

Kimon nage...
Foe comes in a grabs you with both hands... in a manner to unbalance you for a throw... dropping your weight you counter grab him into the butsumetsu.. with both hands... trying to rip his flesh... breaking his balance you apply gyaku koshi nage...

Of coursethis sounds really good...
But...

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Shihan Ralph,

One henka I like to use (utilizing this kata) is when the opponent begins to move to the "kumi uchi" or classical judo grabbing position to reach up an pinch at thier tricep, then to immediately drop to the yoko sutemi nage. I often finish with a roll onto the opponent, and a submission lock.

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r.severe]

Steve sensei,
I have trained many different Japanese systems over the years...
Shotokan included... as well as Kukishinden ryu, Togakure ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Kashima Shin ryu, Katori Shinto ryu, Toyama ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, Shinto ryu and Daito ryu to name a few that are off the top of my head...
But out of these I really dislike kukishinden ryu Dakentaijutsu gata.
I do not find them close to modern use for street fighting.. not for my research and training...
That is a over all feeling of the ryuha...
Of course there are a few gata I find good.. but...

How do you feel about your personal experience?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Shihan Ralph,

I would agree with you on applying the traditional kata in a fight. But, for many students it starts them off at a reference point from which they can then start to explore. Some of these students have never even hit a heavy bag before they come to start training. I'll bring them into the kata, bag work, pad them up and eventually let them spar out of the technique. Most quickly forget about the "kata" ...of course...and revert back to very basic punches and kicks, throws and locks!!

Too funny....

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[ronhughen]

Don't you think kata are really only valuable (or maybe most valuable) as exercises for beginers to learn foot-body-brain coordination? I find it hard to believe that a coorographed set of movements (that may have come from a real fight by some warrior in the past) would nesicarily be expected to work in a real situation. BUT, the way such a form can train the body/nervous system seems to me to be of value.

 

[Dale Seago]

Don't you think kata are really only valuable (or maybe most valuable) as exercises for beginers to learn foot-body-brain coordination? I find it hard to believe that a coorographed set of movements (that may have come from a real fight by some warrior in the past) would nesicarily be expected to work in a real situation. BUT, the way such a form can train the body/nervous system seems to me to be of value.

There's a lot more than that involved in proper kata training. For a really interesting examination of relevant issues both pro and con, read through this thread at Sword Forum International on "Free-Sparring in Kenjutsu". It's long and sometimes contentious, but brings out some excellent points on both sides of this kind of issue along with some fascinating history.

 

[Kreth]

Sparring without forms is just brawling. You have to learn the technique well before you try to apply it against resistance. And this is another thing that always confused me: the opinion that certain techniques won't work against a resisting opponent. If the opponent is resisting, why fight for your technique, use something else...

Jeff

 

[r.severe]

Good OPINION.

But not the "truth".

My truth is, teach fighting from the stand point of enlightenment.
Then from a stand point of understanding the enlightenment.
Then from a point of view of historal concepts and pragmatic experience.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Dale Seago]

And this is another thing that always confused me: the opinion that certain techniques won't work against a resisting opponent. If the opponent is resisting, why fight for your technique, use something else...

Yeah, the use of terms like "resisting opponent" and "applying techniques 'against resistance'" are hot-buttons of mine too. "Resistance" is something to be bypassed/gone around/neutralized in some way so that a technique can be applied. Techniques are never applied against the other person's force/resistance.

Now, something like "noncooperative" persons/partners/opponents would be a meaningful term -- I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

[Cryozombie]

Good OPINION.

But not the "truth".

My truth is, teach fighting from the stand point of enlightenment.
ralph severe, kamiyama

This is an interesting concept, can you expand on what you mean by that?

 

[Don Roley]

Now, something like "noncooperative" persons/partners/opponents would be a meaningful term -- I'm perfectly fine with that.

You mean like someone who will not go to the ground unless you really are able to throw them? I agree 100 percent. Partners like that are priceless and I try to grab guys I know will punch straight and not let me do a technique unless it is perfect.

But if someone knows you are coming at you with technique "A" and resists it in a way that it is difficult to do that technique, then it is stupid and against the rule of Kyojitsu Tenkan Ho to try to do the technique he is expecting and preparing for.