Cyriacus
Senior Master
Good luck getting much power in it, though. Or specifically, enough to be effective. Plus, He isnt just going to stand there.
Rear Bear Hug Defense
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Good thread.
Part of the preparation for 3rd black in our school is dealing with non-compliant attacks such as rear bear hug. Since the attacker tends to decide what to do, it becomes a real bear to deal with (pun intended). This can be anything from a being lifted and slammed or more of a forward momentum tackling type attack. Often the attacker removes all possibility of being able to perform one of the more traditional techs one knows.
Something like this happened to me during the test and practice. Since it's spontaneous, you often come up with unconventional solutions.
1. During the test. the attacker had me bent forward arms pinned. I ended up continuing the momentum and sort of did a dive roll. The attacker, still attached, went for a ride and took the brunt of the fall with my weight added to it. From there it became a ground game.
2. During practice, the attacker grabbed me arms pinned with his forward momentum driving me forward. Intent was to slam me into the wall (wall has a matt hanging from it). After a few involuntary steps forward I stepped off the line and spun the attacker which made him instinctively loosen his grip. The centrifugal force of that circle separated us from there. Since most bear hugs has a momentum, this tech works in a variety scenarios and can be used to slam the attacker into objects or people. As usually with any tech, it has counters.
Part of the preparation for 3rd black in our school is dealing with non-compliant attacks such as rear bear hug. Since the attacker tends to decide what to do, it becomes a real bear to deal with (pun intended). This can be anything from a being lifted and slammed or more of a forward momentum tackling type attack. Often the attacker removes all possibility of being able to perform one of the more traditional techs one knows.
Something like this happened to me during the test and practice. Since it's spontaneous, you often come up with unconventional solutions.
1. During the test. the attacker had me bent forward arms pinned. I ended up continuing the momentum and sort of did a dive roll. The attacker, still attached, went for a ride and took the brunt of the fall with my weight added to it. From there it became a ground game.
2. During practice, the attacker grabbed me arms pinned with his forward momentum driving me forward. Intent was to slam me into the wall (wall has a matt hanging from it). After a few involuntary steps forward I stepped off the line and spun the attacker which made him instinctively loosen his grip. The centrifugal force of that circle separated us from there. Since most bear hugs has a momentum, this tech works in a variety scenarios and can be used to slam the attacker into objects or people. As usually with any tech, it has counters.
IMO, I really don't like to use the "Well this art is doing it" example. Just because the Gracies, the Military or LEOs are doing it, doesnt mean its the best thing since sliced bread. The self defense that I learned in the Corrections academy wasn't the greatest, and honestly, doing some of that stuff just may get you seriously hurt or worse. I was thankful I had a plan b. 
But I suppose, just like anything, there is good and bad. This was simply one example. I don't think its the end all, be all of answers. As for the elbows...well, here is a clip showing them. This clip also shows a few things similar to what I posted.
[yt]hukqFbyWJQE[/yt]
I think one of the major differences IMO, is the use of strikes prior to going for the leg. ie: give the guy something else to think about prior to going for the leg, may prove greater success.
But I suppose, just like anything, there is good and bad. This was simply one example. I don't think its the end all, be all of answers. As for the elbows...well, here is a clip showing them. This clip also shows a few things similar to what I posted. [yt]hukqFbyWJQE[/yt]
I think one of the major differences IMO, is the use of strikes prior to going for the leg. ie: give the guy something else to think about prior to going for the leg, may prove greater success.
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
#1 - "real self defense" is so dynamic it is hard, I feel practically impossible, to give a yes/no answer on techniques.
I have seen things that should NOT work save people's lives and things that ALWAYS work get people hurt. IMO the only thing we can do is to follow basic logic, physics and work the numbers.
Statistically over a 30+ year training career and 15+ teaching I have NEVER seen the original defense shown by the OP work. Funny enough it is the one I was taught and then taught myself for quite some time. I spent all the time I taught it at my school "correcting" people who couldn't get it to work. Ultimately I got honest and followed the numbers to find that this was simply a "demo/static" technique. Its not that it can't or won't work in "real" life but it probably won't most of the time.
So, since it was not a statistical win I dumped the technique and started searching for the highest statistically pleasing alternative. I found that when one finds themselves in this strange situation the following technique will work almost ALL of the time;
1. Choose a side
2. Wrap your arm around the elbow of the attackers arm on that side trapping it.
3. Kneel down with the knee of the side that has the arm trapped.
This technique will cause the attacker to fall.
With this said, it probably won't work!
I have seen things that should NOT work save people's lives and things that ALWAYS work get people hurt. IMO the only thing we can do is to follow basic logic, physics and work the numbers.
Statistically over a 30+ year training career and 15+ teaching I have NEVER seen the original defense shown by the OP work. Funny enough it is the one I was taught and then taught myself for quite some time. I spent all the time I taught it at my school "correcting" people who couldn't get it to work. Ultimately I got honest and followed the numbers to find that this was simply a "demo/static" technique. Its not that it can't or won't work in "real" life but it probably won't most of the time.
So, since it was not a statistical win I dumped the technique and started searching for the highest statistically pleasing alternative. I found that when one finds themselves in this strange situation the following technique will work almost ALL of the time;
1. Choose a side
2. Wrap your arm around the elbow of the attackers arm on that side trapping it.
3. Kneel down with the knee of the side that has the arm trapped.
This technique will cause the attacker to fall.
With this said, it probably won't work!
Well, I agree. I've said pretty much the same thing regarding the techniques...that they're simply a foundation to build from. They give 1 possible idea, and then its up to each person to figure things out from there, using the arts principles, ideas and concepts, so you can form your own response, according to whats happening at that moment.
Of course, were some of my fellow Kenpoists to hear what you said, they'd probably be upset with you...LOL. In other words...how dare you say that something wont work...shame on you! LMAO! All kidding aside...I'd always tell the people I train just what I said in this post...."Heres a tech for a defence against a bearhug. This is how it goes. Ok, train it. Good, now lets look at what can go wrong, what else the badguy can do." And we go from there. I mean, really...we could spend weeks, if not longer, working 1 tech. and building off of it. IMO, THAT is how someone is really going to learn.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
If the attacker doesn't lift you the move probably will at least take the guy down but i'm thinking it would be hard to bend with a strong person holding you let alone lifting.
When it comes to bearhugs, i have to say i believe what i learned in the dojo that if someone bearhugs you, it's already too late. You have to train to develop bearhug sensors and the instant the arms come around you step forward violently pushing your pelvis out and pushing with arms.. works-gotta be a really sudden move, because if a really big guy get you in his clutches and lifts, pretty much no move will work with high percentage. I'm really thankfull to have learned that. Been bearhuged plenty myself. The thing about it is one tends to underestimate the danger and that's what makes it so effective. Once bearhugged, you're probably going to get a)crushed b)thrown down to the ground or c)both;after being lifted somewhat.
So best bet is to NOT let someone get a grip at all and if they do then not a good one. Even though i have often gone arial when being throw, one time i was like ''up up and away...' and the guy(quite real sit)grabs me in midair changes course and brutaly smashes me into the ground with no time for midair reversal... don't underestimate being grabed and the speed of any shooter that lunges.
When it comes to bearhugs, i have to say i believe what i learned in the dojo that if someone bearhugs you, it's already too late. You have to train to develop bearhug sensors and the instant the arms come around you step forward violently pushing your pelvis out and pushing with arms.. works-gotta be a really sudden move, because if a really big guy get you in his clutches and lifts, pretty much no move will work with high percentage. I'm really thankfull to have learned that. Been bearhuged plenty myself. The thing about it is one tends to underestimate the danger and that's what makes it so effective. Once bearhugged, you're probably going to get a)crushed b)thrown down to the ground or c)both;after being lifted somewhat.
So best bet is to NOT let someone get a grip at all and if they do then not a good one. Even though i have often gone arial when being throw, one time i was like ''up up and away...' and the guy(quite real sit)grabs me in midair changes course and brutaly smashes me into the ground with no time for midair reversal... don't underestimate being grabed and the speed of any shooter that lunges.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Thanks! This is one thing that no one has mentioned, or I just missed it.
Any time, the most effective responses are the quicker ones. The use of the pelvis, assuming yours and the assailant's heights are close enough, can be a big surprise to the assailant; groin or stomach/air can suffer. Even if not, it can create some separation and diversion, allowing this technique to work better. There is no certainty of any attack from the rear being defended against easily, but there are things that can be done to help get yourself out of the situation. Anything that helps is worth learning.
As to all the comments about how an attacker would be stupid to go under your arms, in a perfect assailant world, that is true. However, your arms may not be at your side if you are defending against an attacker already to your front. So expect to have your arms pinned and learn defenses for that, but if they aren't, learn some for that too.
WingChunIan
Blue Belt
kind of thing that gives martial arts a bad name IMO. Nice of the assailant to grab obligingly around the waist so that the defender can bend forward unhindered, very kind of him not to pin the arms either.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Under arm bear hugs do happen. It's happened to me, and anyone who's seen the 'Helpless Asian Man Attacked' video in the last week will recall that it happens to him at least twice during his ordeal. In a multiple unskilled attacker scenario, it's one of the most likely forms of takedown, because they hugger can creep up on the huggee while he is occupied with someone else. The question is, in a multiple attacker scenario, would you want to be bending forward to reach through your legs? I would not. I'd go for the elbow strikes and palm to the groin. At least from these you can try to bounce into a forward punch to keep the other assailant occupied. Why occupy both hands and your eyes with the leg lift...although it works OK 1 on 1.
I've learned to prevent being picked up during a bear hug by hooking the assailants leg with my leg either an "inner" or "outer" lock, but I prefer the inner lock. This also makes it difficult for them to throw you to the ground. I'm not saying it's foolproof but it does help.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Aye - But can You do that instantaneously when Youre not doing it in a drill which You are aware of, as oppose to, say, someone grabbing You out of nowere from behind whilst another man comes at You from the front?
All I can do is train and hope that I can in a real situation. We do sneak up on people in our classes and try different headlocks, bearhugs, etc. Sometimes I react ok, sometimes I don't. Does anyone know how they will react in a given situation?
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Thats the point - You dont. Im not questioning Your methods, but it helps to avoid thinking that 'You know what You would do", or rather, "I've learned to prevent being picked up" Thats all, Good Sir
Thats the point - You dont. Im not questioning Your methods, but it helps to avoid thinking that 'You know what You would do", or rather, "I've learned to prevent being picked up" Thats all, Good Sir
I understand completely, our instructor is always saying that what we learn is a tool that does not guanantee success. He just hopes that we are able to apply some of what we learn to improve our odds. The best defense in my mind is to avoid situations were you need to use what you've learned. Easier said than done for some people. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
And I appreciate Your Constructive Conversation. Though of course, whilst avoidance is best, its not often possible.
I've enjoyed reading this thread. One thing that is really clear is that there is no one solution to the range of attacks that could be called "bearhugs". In our system we use many of the counters discussed here. But ultimately, it is your attacker who dictates your counter. Is he tall, short, strong, or heavy? Does he move very fast and explosively? Is he doing a hard forward "tackle" type bearhug? ...a lift, twist, and slam? ...a double back heel drop that slams you down backwards? ...or what else? The only thing he won't likely do is grab you and just stand there.
Sometimes you have time to do a classic sequence like sinking your weight, trapping his hands, sidestepping and giving a rear elbow to the ribs, a low rear chop, palm or hammer fist to the groin, then break the hug (or drop out underneath) to escape or turn and counter attack. Sometimes you can even get in that rear shin/instep stomp (if you are not being tackled, lifted up, or slammed). Sometimes you start to get lifted up like MPC 1257 suggested, and can counter with that inside leg hook long enough to land a rear elbow and loosen his grip (not my personal favorite). Sometimes there's enough time to go nuts with high flailing back elbows and rear headbutts like TheGateKeeper suggested. But often there isn't enough time before you get slammed down. Sometimes they hit you like a freight train and you've got to roll forward with their force, trapping their arms and taking them over the falls like Zoran said back in post #22. About the only thing they probably won't do is stick their leg between yours and let you bend over and grab it like in the OP. But you never know.
Like Brian VanCise others have stated, You need to start by thinking about what tha attacker is trying to do. Assume they know what they are doing. Like others have said, my approach to training this would to consider all the ways you would want to use a bearhug as an attack. Suit up in protective gear and at practice it hard, with the 'hugger" doing his best to win. Then vary the attack. It's like a flow drill. You have to deal with what you get and go with the flow. With mats and protective gear this type of training is a blast. As I train right now, out in the park, we have to tone it down a lot or this old geezer gets pretty beat up... Even when I "win". Of course it would be worse on the street, so no compaints here.
Sometimes you have time to do a classic sequence like sinking your weight, trapping his hands, sidestepping and giving a rear elbow to the ribs, a low rear chop, palm or hammer fist to the groin, then break the hug (or drop out underneath) to escape or turn and counter attack. Sometimes you can even get in that rear shin/instep stomp (if you are not being tackled, lifted up, or slammed). Sometimes you start to get lifted up like MPC 1257 suggested, and can counter with that inside leg hook long enough to land a rear elbow and loosen his grip (not my personal favorite). Sometimes there's enough time to go nuts with high flailing back elbows and rear headbutts like TheGateKeeper suggested. But often there isn't enough time before you get slammed down. Sometimes they hit you like a freight train and you've got to roll forward with their force, trapping their arms and taking them over the falls like Zoran said back in post #22. About the only thing they probably won't do is stick their leg between yours and let you bend over and grab it like in the OP. But you never know.
Like Brian VanCise others have stated, You need to start by thinking about what tha attacker is trying to do. Assume they know what they are doing. Like others have said, my approach to training this would to consider all the ways you would want to use a bearhug as an attack. Suit up in protective gear and at practice it hard, with the 'hugger" doing his best to win. Then vary the attack. It's like a flow drill. You have to deal with what you get and go with the flow. With mats and protective gear this type of training is a blast. As I train right now, out in the park, we have to tone it down a lot or this old geezer gets pretty beat up... Even when I "win". Of course it would be worse on the street, so no compaints here.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I've enjoyed reading this thread. One thing that is really clear is that there is no one solution to the range of attacks that could be called "bearhugs". In our system we use many of the counters discussed here. But ultimately, it is your attacker who dictates your counter. Is he tall, short, strong, or heavy? Does he move very fast and explosively? Is he doing a hard forward "tackle" type bearhug? ...a lift, twist, and slam? ...a double back heel drop that slams you down backwards? ...or what else? The only thing he won't likely do is grab you and just stand there.
And most importantly, since youre unable to see him, and youre not psychic, you wont even know any of that
Sometimes you have time to do a classic sequence like sinking your weight, trapping his hands, sidestepping and giving a rear elbow to the ribs, a low rear chop, palm or hammer fist to the groin, then break the hug (or drop out underneath) to escape or turn and counter attack. Sometimes you can even get in that rear shin/instep stomp (if you are not being tackled, lifted up, or slammed). Sometimes you start to get lifted up like MPC 1257 suggested, and can counter with that inside leg hook long enough to land a rear elbow and loosen his grip (not my personal favorite). Sometimes there's enough time to go nuts with high flailing back elbows and rear headbutts like TheGateKeeper suggested. But often there isn't enough time before you get slammed down. Sometimes they hit you like a freight train and you've got to roll forward with their force, trapping their arms and taking them over the falls like Zoran said back in post #22. About the only thing they probably won't do is stick their leg between yours and let you bend over and grab it like in the OP. But you never know.
Personally, I like to start with a leg hook, then kick at the other leg with my other leg, before attempting anything. It rules out most of the worst outcomes, at least.
Like Brian VanCise others have stated, You need to start by thinking about what tha attacker is trying to do. Assume they know what they are doing. Like others have said, my approach to training this would to consider all the ways you would want to use a bearhug as an attack. Suit up in protective gear and at practice it hard, with the 'hugger" doing his best to win. Then vary the attack. It's like a flow drill. You have to deal with what you get and go with the flow. With mats and protective gear this type of training is a blast. As I train right now, out in the park, we have to tone it down a lot or this old geezer gets pretty beat up... Even when I "win". Of course it would be worse on the street, so no compaints here.
*nods
I think a couple of people hit the nail on the head with a couple of the critiques posted. My primary issue is that he is just so nice about the bear hug. Well, to try and not overlap the existing posts, I will go from a couple of my experiences. If it is a huge friggin guy and his arms are under yours, expect to be airborne. I think back to my wrestling days and think, "you know what? This would be a perfect time for a SUPLEX!"... Ok, maybe that would be rare, but I could see it happening. If the guy for a over the arms, I think back to the first time I jumped (though this was 6th grade, admittedly), where the biggest of three guys slammed in to me from behind, bear hugged me, and ultimately pinned my arms behind my back while the two other guys proceeded to punch the crap out of me. Food for thought.
Anyone interested in some classic reading on this one can check out Jiu Jitsu Complete. I believe it was originally published in the 50's. One of the learn MA at home books so popular back then. Actually covers this very subject. And if you have a teacher who can show you first hand, some of the techniques are legit. But the real joy of the book comes from the class A illustrations. Nothing like doing jiu jitsu in a business suit.:mst:
