Feelin' down...and a little advice?

[Nyrotic]

I
recently went sparring with a couple of my friends. Needless to say, I got the hell beat out of me. I mean, I've been at WC for about 6-7 months now (Been doin' Shaolin-do for about a year and a half before that) and I thought that what little I've learned so far would help me beat a couple of guys who've never had any formal training. Now leaving out my friend who did Tae Kwon Do for 7 years, the other two are just a couple of brothers who've only really ever fought eachother (Both grapplers for the most part). Both of them beat me...well, as far as 'winning' goes in sparring. Basically, I just feel a little down that a system that I have so much faith and trust in didn't pull me through this time.

Also, I HAVE NOT lost faith in WC. Leaving out the fact that I haven't gone through the whole system, how do we WC'ers practice to fight against grapplers? And for aggresive attackers, is it just a matter of catching them on the first strike?

And note that head shots were not allowed, as we have no gear. Could that ultimately be why I didn't do so hot? I...feel...sad.

-Nyro

 

[Sukerkin]

An important thing to bear in mind is that 'sparring' with friends is not fighting.

The study of a martial art has at it's core the concept of inflicting violent conseuqences upon those that attack you. What essentially devolves as 'play fighting' does not allow you to utilise the techniques you have learned.

Any martial art (well those that I know of) is not about pummeling an opponent into submission but inflicting damage that eliminates their ability to fight. That sort of thing is not easily replicable in a non-real environment where your aim is not the disabling or the permanent enforcement of non-movement (and is one reason for the skyrocketing reputation of non-Traditional MA because of the much publicised 'cage fighting').

 

[AceHBK]

Heck i'd be down too...
Keep ya head up and use it as motivation. Also talk with your Sifu and see what he says about it.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Good to hear you haven't lost faith in WC.

I think that one of the reasons it appears to have failed you against your friends (apart from those that Sukerkin has already pointed out) is that WC tends to work on something of a 'first in, best dressed' philosophy. The speed of the strikes really depends on good footwork to do them which usually means getting your shots in first.

Though I have to say, this advice really applies to any art used to combat a grappler. You need to stop the grapple. Wing Chun can be very effective at this.

 

[AceHBK]

I think that one of the reasons it appears to have failed you against your friends (apart from those that Sukerkin has already pointed out) is that WC tends to work on something of a 'first in, best dressed' philosophy. The speed of the strikes really depends on good footwork to do them which usually means getting your shots in first.

So WC stresses getting in first for the strike?
If you don't will this compicate things?
So with WC, size doesn't matter but speed does?

Also, do too many WC artists depends on chain punches. I ask b/c everytime I go to youtube and type in wing chun I always see folks showing how fast they are but more importantly, chain punches are all you see. Maybe it is just me and soemone can point out better WC clips but all I see are 2 moves and chain punches like crazy. Is it that heavily impressed upon students?

 

[Steel Tiger]

So WC stresses getting in first for the strike?
If you don't will this compicate things?
So with WC, size doesn't matter but speed does?

Also, do too many WC artists depends on chain punches. I ask b/c everytime I go to youtube and type in wing chun I always see folks showing how fast they are but more importantly, chain punches are all you see. Maybe it is just me and soemone can point out better WC clips but all I see are 2 moves and chain punches like crazy. Is it that heavily impressed upon students?

I don't know if WC really stresses getting in that first strike, but it is a logical assumption based on the concepts of speed and chain punching you mention. I have never really thought of it as a counter-attacking art, but more as a pre-emptive one.

When fighting a grappler you really only have three options. You can just keep out of range, but you can't mount an offence if you do. You can grapple as well, but that relies on how confident you are in your own grappling skills. Lastly, you can deny them the opportunity to grapple by seizing the initiative. If you're not a grappler and you are engaged you have to hit them first and hard otherwise you'll be in their world and not liking it.

I think that size always matters but WC's history would suggest its not a prime concern. Hand speed is a big deal in WC that's probably why there are so many vids around of chain punching.

And I don't think those vids are diagnostic of Wing Chun. There is more to the art than just chain punching. There are good low kicking techniques, and the centre-line defence concepts produce very good defensive techniques.

This is all just my opinion based on conversations with WC practitioners and viewing a number of classes and demonstrations. My own art (bagua) is so different from WC its surprising they come form the same country.

Maybe some of the Wing Chun guys could give us better insights.

 

[Rabu]

Right. Ill give it a go.

From what you have written, it sounds like you were dissapointed in your performance based on your expectation that you would perform at a certain level. You had this feeling in advance of the matches you had.

Set your expectations more reasonably in future. Instead of 'I should be able to beat these guys since they have no training' use this kind of thinking 'it will be interesting to see how well my skill has progressed and what I can learn from my matches'.

The reason you are feeling the way you are about your matches would seem to be based on the failure of your expectation. In effect you already fought your matches and won.

Its fine to be dissapointed in your performance, but be dissapointed for the right reasons.

If you set the right kinds of expectations, or simply have none, you will only have an experience you can learn from no matter what.

If that does not help, try this: picture yourself winning the matches instead of losing. What is different after the matches that you won vs the matches that you lost? Is that real? Or is it another expectation you could do without?

Your friends are still your friends. You still have the level of skill that you had going in to the matches. It sounds like nobody was hurt physically.

This sounds like a good experience, if you can seperate the expectations from the lessons and the experience.

Best of luck in your studies!

Best regards,

Rob

 

[AceHBK]

Rabu....I agree with you to a certain point. Where I disagree is having high expectations. To me if you don't expect anything but the best from yourself then you are in turn short changing yourself.

If he aims extremely high and comes up short he should be content to where he is at but it also shows what he needs to work on and needs to work twice as hard.

 

[AceHBK]

I don't know if WC really stresses getting in that first strike, but it is a logical assumption based on the concepts of speed and chain punching you mention. I have never really thought of it as a counter-attacking art, but more as a pre-emptive one.

When fighting a grappler you really only have three options. You can just keep out of range, but you can't mount an offence if you do. You can grapple as well, but that relies on how confident you are in your own grappling skills. Lastly, you can deny them the opportunity to grapple by seizing the initiative. If you're not a grappler and you are engaged you have to hit them first and hard otherwise you'll be in their world and not liking it.

I think that size always matters but WC's history would suggest its not a prime concern. Hand speed is a big deal in WC that's probably why there are so many vids around of chain punching.

And I don't think those vids are diagnostic of Wing Chun. There is more to the art than just chain punching. There are good low kicking techniques, and the centre-line defence concepts produce very good defensive techniques.

This is all just my opinion based on conversations with WC practitioners and viewing a number of classes and demonstrations. My own art (bagua) is so different from WC its surprising they come form the same country.

Maybe some of the Wing Chun guys could give us better insights.

You make some good points. I guess I always saw WC as more counter attacking MA due to the principle of deflecting and using their opponents power.

I wish I could see more clips of WC without the 50 million chain punches or people doing chi saio (?) and showing how fast they can move.

I have never seen bagua (unless it has been used in a movie and I didn't know it I will have to search on youtube then to see what it looks like.

I wonder for all the WC people....is WC that different than from.....Kenpo? If they are, what are the major differences? Dpo u feel they share some similarities?

 

[TheOriginalName]

I guess something to keep in mind also is that when you are sparring you can do and try things that you would never have done in the real world.

In the real world situation your training would allow you to control your fear, where as they (without training) may give in to fear.

Don't get too down.
Analyse what happened
Learn what you can from it
Then push it aside and move forward.

Best of luck - and keep your chin up!!

 

[brocklee]

Well, it's very hard to spar and not lose if using WC. The reason being is that WC is a lawless style and can only be effective if used at full force.

aceHBK has a good point as to you shouldn't enter a battle with win or lose on your mind. Simply go in expecting to lose and hoping to win. After that, stash that thought in the back of your head and don't think about it till after the fight. Focus on staying relaxed and calm and watch the attack as it approaches. Chain punches are for the inaccurate and those that don't have enough confidence in their blocking abilities. You can deliver the same amount of dmg with a single 1 inch punch to the chest, neck or face.

Practice practice practice. You don't have to believe in WC for it to work. You just have to do the moves soooo many times that you understand whats going on underneath the muscle.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Good stuff Brocklee.... Very true

Also guys - bear in mind that you won't win every fight. Do you think there wasn't a time when Chuck Liddel or Bruce Lee didn't get beaten?

6-7 months is a very short time in any martial art and you will grow from the experience of a lost fight.

Wing chun vs. grappling is an odd concept - you have to remember that grapplers do best on the floor, and wing chun guys do best while standing up. So as I have said previously, it is like a fight between a crocodile and a lion. If the lion goes in to the water, he is most likely to get beaten. If a crocodile comes onto land, it will get beaten.

Similarly, if you get grabbed by a BJJ guy, you will lose. If you keep your feet, then you will win!

The fight therefore is alll about whether it goes to ground or not!

Bear in mind that later on, you will be able to incorperate BJJ into wing chun. People have argued on here about learning good stancework and keeping your feet, and that works okay in a spar. But in a real environment where you migt get grabbed out of the blue, you need to understand what your opponet is looking for.

I train BJJ and wrestling and it allows me to see what the grappler is looking for and simply not let him do it!

Keep faith - wing chun is a powerful art and as Brocklee said, works best at full force and at street level

If you want to go and spar, learn a sport art

 

[Tez3]

Kamon Guy is correct, from an MMA point of view when we have an opponent who is a a strong grappler we try to keep him standing up and vice versa. There are lots of ways to avoid being taken down, it's not inevitable. One of the reason we have a wide stance in MMA...quite hard for me to change from a karate stance.... is to help avoid the takedowns. As Kamon says, get some BJJ into your training if you can, don't be discouraged whatever your style and theres some really good advice from the guys on here!

 

[brocklee]

Kamon Guy is correct, from an MMA point of view when we have an opponent who is a a strong grappler we try to keep him standing up and vice versa. There are lots of ways to avoid being taken down, it's not inevitable. One of the reason we have a wide stance in MMA...quite hard for me to change from a karate stance.... is to help avoid the takedowns. As Kamon says, get some BJJ into your training if you can, don't be discouraged whatever your style and theres some really good advice from the guys on here!

ehh...If you pick up BJJ, you are now a MMA fighter and less of a WC pratictioner. WC has great ground fighting capabilities because we are used to very close range attacks. Everything that you learn standing up, can be applied when horizontal. You do want to avoid going to the ground and WC has great anti-grappling moves that most people aren't interested in learning.

 

[Tez3]

ehh...If you pick up BJJ, you are now a MMA fighter and less of a WC pratictioner. WC has great ground fighting capabilities because we are used to very close range attacks. Everything that you learn standing up, can be applied when horizontal. You do want to avoid going to the ground and WC has great anti-grappling moves that most people aren't interested in learning.

I don't think that because you do one style and also do BJJ that makes you an MMA fighter, it's not that easy lol!

 

[brocklee]

I don't think that because you do one style and also do BJJ that makes you an MMA fighter, it's not that easy lol!

It's a lot easier then trying to keep them separate. I do think that if I were to select another fighting style it would be BJJ. It's a great style. However, there's much more to be learned in my WC and don't see time in the future to incorporate it into my training.

I believe if you're training 2 styles, you will start switching between the two when called into a fight. When this happens, I would say that its MMA. If you can stick to the BJJ in one fight and then use only WC in another, then you are really good at mental and physical control. It would be difficult to rely on muscle memory, that's for sure.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, it's very hard to spar and not lose if using WC.

It's really difficult to "play spar" with friends, using any traditional martial art. You are just playing, not reallying fighting, so whatever you throw at them, you can't really hurt them. If you tag your grappling buddy with a punch and say "I just nailed you", he says "no you didn't, it didn't hurt me!" and then he just grapples you down. A lot of traditional martial arts, esp. those geared toward striking, just don't work if you do them "half way". It's really a matter of all or nothing. You need to use it 100%, or not at all 'cause it won't work if you don't.

 

[brocklee]

It's really difficult to "play spar" with friends, using any traditional martial art. You are just playing, not reallying fighting, so whatever you throw at them, you can't really hurt them. If you tag your grappling buddy with a punch and say "I just nailed you", he says "no you didn't, it didn't hurt me!" and then he just grapples you down. A lot of traditional martial arts, esp. those geared toward striking, just don't work if you do them "half way". It's really a matter of all or nothing. You need to use it 100%, or not at all 'cause it won't work if you don't.

Yes It really becomes a switch too, between off and on. And that's where staying relaxed plays a big part. I've gotten to the point where when my friends accidentally hit me...I pop into relaxed mode so that I don't kill them. lol

I've used WC a decent amount of times in bar fights and street brawls. Once that switch is turned on, it takes outsiders to tear me off the other guy. It's great because mentally I just sit back and watch the fight. The body does the rest of the work.

 

[KamonGuy2]

WC has great ground fighting capabilities because we are used to very close range attacks..

No no no no no !!!
If you are taken to the floor, you're wing chun goes to pot. Think about where you generate power from. Your stance and your hip. If you are pinned, you can't use these. It is unlikely that you will run into a BJJ black belt in the street, but most big guys can hold you down.

A lot of good wing chun masters realise that wing chun is not good on the ground. Both Kevin Chan and Alan Orr have explored grappling arts for this very reason.

Everything that you learn standing up, can be applied when horizontal. You do want to avoid going to the ground and WC has great anti-grappling moves that most people aren't interested in learning.

Again, you can do some 'okay' anti grappling techniques, but these will not work on experienced street fighters or anyone who has done a good bit of grappling training
Yet if you learnt BJJ and add your wing chun to that, its devastating

 

[brocklee]

No no no no no !!!
If you are taken to the floor, you're wing chun goes to pot. Think about where you generate power from. Your stance and your hip. If you are pinned, you can't use these. It is unlikely that you will run into a BJJ black belt in the street, but most big guys can hold you down.

A lot of good wing chun masters realise that wing chun is not good on the ground. Both Kevin Chan and Alan Orr have explored grappling arts for this very reason.


Again, you can do some 'okay' anti grappling techniques, but these will not work on experienced street fighters or anyone who has done a good bit of grappling training
Yet if you learnt BJJ and add your wing chun to that, its devastating

Ok, so you're a MMA fighter then. The pieces are falling together.

And on the street, belts hold up pants and keep engines going.