Feds going too far.... by criminalizing everyone

[Xinglu]

Contrary to popular belief. The only freedom you have is the freedom that your goverment allows you to have!

This is not in line with what the founding fathers had in mind with the formation of our government.

 

[Xinglu]

2nd Amendment.

But we don't REALLY have that. We have an abridged version.

 

[KELLYG]

"This is not in line with what the founding fathers had in mind with the formation of our government"

Xinglu,

I agree with you 100% but the government has slowly been eroding what this country was founded on every since it was started. The end result is what we have today. Grannies and Grandpas being thrown in the pen for having a hobby or having the nerve to speak out against the government.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not to be devil's advocate, but isn't this exactly the type of power Americans granted their law enforcement agencies post 9/11? In hindsight, and with actual application, maybe it's not looking like such a great idea anymore?

Of course what do Orchids have to do with national security? But your point is still valid.

During the Roman Empire, the emperors took to have laws printed high on columns........so that the people could not read them or know what was illegal. That way the emperor's could apply the laws to whomever they saw fit, since virtually anyone could violate a written law they had no way of knowing.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Contrary to popular belief. The only freedom you have is the freedom that your goverment allows you to have!

Mrs. Norris testified before the House Judiciary subcommittee on crime this summer. The hearing's topic: the rapid and dangerous expansion of federal criminal law, an expansion that is often unprincipled and highly partisan. Lesson learned do not protest against expansion of federal criminal law.

Evertson, a small-time entrepreneur and inventor, faced two separate federal prosecutions stemming from his work trying to develop clean-energy fuel cells. Lesson learned do not try to make clean energy (non fossil fuel) cells.

That's not entirely true.......the only freedom you have is what you have the power to TAKE! What the government GIVES you are 'privileges'.

All liberty AND despotism begins at the end of a sword......the difference is who is holding the sword.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

 

[KELLYG]

sgtmac_46

I agree with your statement 100%. It seems to me with the examples posted that these people were unable to defend themselves with their sword. Who is protecting the people that can not protect themselves? Who do you call when the government has ill will against you and wants you punished? Jezz the woman was growing orchids for Pete's sake.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Should we be surprised that the second guy was thrown in jail for working on clean energy fuel cells?

 

[cdunn]

The gentleman.. and I use that word in the loosest of terms... that was working on the fuel cells was jailed for shipping ten tons of material which will autoignite on contact with moisture without following the established (and woefully inadequate) safety procedures and declarations. His truck, frankly, could have done enough damage to make Osama bin Laden drool in envy.

Working on an alternate fuel cell does not give you the right to accidently spray poison and fire all over the landscape.

 

[MA-Caver]

Was talking with a friend of mine today during a leisurely 3 mile hike and basically we're working our way to socialism whether we like it or not... So whatever it is that you may or may not be doing... it's going to get examined closely.
Told him that eventually he and I would need a permit for doing what we are doing at that moment... hiking along a trail alongside a mountain. We'll have to explain everything that we plan on doing and describe everything that we are bringing with us and explain the purpose of the hike.

We'll then have to wait 4-6 weeks to get the permit and go on the date/time specified and return at a specified date/time.

Hello Comrades what a brave new world we live in.

“If the federal government has the exclusive right to judge the extent of its own powers, warned the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions’ authors (James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, respectively), it will continue to grow – regardless of elections, the separation of powers, and other much-touted limits on government power.”
–Thomas E. Woods

The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.


Benjamin Dislaeli English Statesman 1844

 

[Xinglu]

sgtmac_46

I agree with your statement 100%. It seems to me with the examples posted that these people were unable to defend themselves with their sword. Who is protecting the people that can not protect themselves? Who do you call when the government has ill will against you and wants you punished? Jezz the woman was growing orchids for Pete's sake.

The thing is, if he did defend himself in such a way, he and his wife would be dead. However, if the entire town he lived in, stood up to the feds there would be little they could do about it.

Individuals who stand up and fight will get nothing done except to be executed and/or jailed. What is needed is organized groups of people to stand up and fight. But that would no doubt be mislabeled as domestic terrorism...

 

[Sukerkin]

I really don't mean this to come across as horrid or argumentative for the sake of it but you chaps have really got to to learn the difference between Socialism and despotic Communism.

I know that the propoganda that was fed to you during the Cold War is why the term is skewed in your minds but that is no excuse not to learn what the terms mean after the fact.

It's a small point but an annoying one to those handful of us on this site who actually live in a socialist state and quite like it.

 

[grydth]

British tyranny? When did that happen?

I know we had a colony full of religious malcontents who treasonously refused to pay the perfectly fair and just dues levied upon them by the body to whom they owed loyalty.

They then went on to collaborate with the mortal enemy of their mother country in a violent terrorist assault equisitely timed to make their ramshackle colony not economically worth the fight to keep it under the wing of the sovereign.

Interesting thing, history, isn't it :lol:?

Oh, that tic in the "L" column for wars must still smart so, even after 200 years.

Fortunately, you learned from the experience, and now seek to impose that soul stifling brand of socialism only upon yourselves.

Unfortunately, we learned from you and have now done this to ourselves, "erected a multitude of new Offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance."

So, it can be readily seen that all of our troubles originated in the UK!

 

[crushing]

Not to be devil's advocate, but isn't this exactly the type of power Americans granted their law enforcement agencies post 9/11? In hindsight, and with actual application, maybe it's not looking like such a great idea anymore?

It has been much more gradual and over a longer term than that. It started in the 1930s for the good of all and really seemed to accelerate in the mid to late 1990s and again in 2001.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Was talking with a friend of mine today during a leisurely 3 mile hike and basically we're working our way to socialism whether we like it or not... So whatever it is that you may or may not be doing... it's going to get examined closely.
Told him that eventually he and I would need a permit for doing what we are doing at that moment... hiking along a trail alongside a mountain. We'll have to explain everything that we plan on doing and describe everything that we are bringing with us and explain the purpose of the hike.

We'll then have to wait 4-6 weeks to get the permit and go on the date/time specified and return at a specified date/time.

Hello Comrades what a brave new world we live in.

I'm just glad that one way or another, I won't live to see it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Oh, that tic in the "L" column for wars must still smart so, even after 200 years.

Not really - only when former colonists rejoice overmuch in a rebellion they did not win. The French won your independance for you and then stiffed you (we could have told you that would happen).

Fortunately, you learned from the experience, and now seek to impose that soul stifling brand of socialism only upon yourselves.

Oh you mean that Parliamentary Democracy thingy that most of the world that considers itself 'free' copies?

Unfortunately, we learned from you and have now done this to ourselves, "erected a multitude of new Offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance."

Oh so true - the dry rot that is bureaucracy and internal empire building is a universal

So, it can be readily seen that all of our troubles originated in the UK!

Well of course they did - you are English after all.

{can't think of a smiley that rightly says that this is in fun but that there is a core of truth in all of it}.

 

[grydth]

Yes, I can imagine having the French collect an "assist" must be doubly humbling.... I mean, who loses wars to the French?

Even at my most contentious and uncivil, I have never called any opponent.... "English" !!!

Though fun, .... we do digress......

 

[grydth]

P. S.

You know you've won a moral and intellectual victory when the other fellow has to drop the "E Bomb".......

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, if we're going to tangent about that little dispute back in the 1700's, it wasn't really the English's butts that got kicked, but lots of hired Germans. Actually, it was WW2, the Prequel, with the same players, just different positions. Actually my biggest complaint with England is Earl Grey tea, but that's a whole nother argument.


As to the topic of people being criminalized, one only has to look at the increasing number of complaints of people being harassed over taking photographs or video taping cops and rent-a-cops actions, with growing numbers of people told incorrectly that it's illegal and terroristic. 2 weeks after a local photographers meetup spent an entire evening photographing the Peace Bridge in WNY, a lone photographer was chased away by US Border patrol, who cited 9/11. Bridge is lit up like mad at night in a cool display. People ask "what's the harm in complying with a cops unlawful order?". Point out the obvious and you're a cop hater.

People are tense, the cops are tense, and abuses are happening. Short cuts are being taken, and people are getting hurt, lives destroyed and trust in law enforcement is eroding. This creates a vicious cycle that takes both sides to break. Cops need to be sure they have their facts straight and deal with the few bad cops who need to be drumed out. They have to stop assuming that everyone is a bad guy, and the public needs to know that despite a few jerks, the majority of cops are good people who do a hard thankless job every day not knowing if today they go home in a bag.

All of us need to hold our elected officials accountable, and start calling them on their BS, and remind them that they either work for US or they can clean out their desks and work for a living like the rest of us.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, if we're going to tangent about that little dispute back in the 1700's, it wasn't really the English's butts that got kicked, but lots of hired Germans. Actually, it was WW2, the Prequel, with the same players, just different positions. Actually my biggest complaint with England is Earl Grey tea, but that's a whole nother argument.


As to the topic of people being criminalized, one only has to look at the increasing number of complaints of people being harassed over taking photographs or video taping cops and rent-a-cops actions, with growing numbers of people told incorrectly that it's illegal and terroristic. 2 weeks after a local photographers meetup spent an entire evening photographing the Peace Bridge in WNY, a lone photographer was chased away by US Border patrol, who cited 9/11. Bridge is lit up like mad at night in a cool display. People ask "what's the harm in complying with a cops unlawful order?". Point out the obvious and you're a cop hater.

People are tense, the cops are tense, and abuses are happening. Short cuts are being taken, and people are getting hurt, lives destroyed and trust in law enforcement is eroding. This creates a vicious cycle that takes both sides to break. Cops need to be sure they have their facts straight and deal with the few bad cops who need to be drumed out. They have to stop assuming that everyone is a bad guy, and the public needs to know that despite a few jerks, the majority of cops are good people who do a hard thankless job every day not knowing if today they go home in a bag.

All of us need to hold our elected officials accountable, and start calling them on their BS, and remind them that they either work for US or they can clean out their desks and work for a living like the rest of us.

All completely correct in theory, and I should like to endeavor to do so for as long as it may yet matter, and yet I remain largely convinced that we are in the final quarter of the human game and time is running out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This really burns me up! :rpo:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone/

What would you do if this happens to you?

- Ceicei

One of the many reasons that I favor a small, limited federal government.

Daniel