rmcrobertson said:
Rich:
What you are describing is capitalism, an economic system. It has no interest in fairness, workers, rights, ethics, America, or anything else. It is a system for producing, accumulating, exchanging this thing called, "capital." Everything else is incidental--and the things you complain about are some of its side effects.
And what is wrong with this system?
Should we be Communists? Where everyone gets the same? ON a real small scale such as a Commune I think this system would work. Everyone can benefit from the labors of the others and see it and know it. When it gets too large, it is too easy for the human factor and in natural greed to step in. Just my opinion.
rmcrobertson said:
Looked at any of the stuff on what happens once CEOs start making more than twenty times what their lowest-paid workers make?
I agree to a salary to the decision-making capability of the CEO's. I do not like the hidden bonuses and such that seem to always come out in their favor even when the company is not doing well. Once again, just because I make a comment about a local situation, you assume I am making a broad statement against all. :idunno:
rmcrobertson said:
American workers, and the middle class for that matter, slip a little further behind every year--as people work harder, commute more, have less access to care, lose out on a good education, etc. And, as the likes of our current President get richer and richer....
Ok, how do we fix this? I do not disagree. How do we fix it?
rmcrobertson said:
I mean, you didn't buy that "tax cut," lunacy, did you?
Tax Cut
, Yeah Sure, I got a tax cut all right. I am single, I saw maybe $800. And even if I saw $8,000, I would still ask where is the money coming from? Do we still not have a deficit and under-funded SS?
rmcrobertson said:
I recommend reading some E.P. Thompson, I.F. Stone, and Howard Zinn on the history of unions.
I will check them out in the future.
rmcrobertson said:
It's capitalism. Piling up money for the bosses is what capitalism does. It's how it works. Of course, lost in the bargain are tens of millions of Americans....
Communism did not work. Socialism? with France and Canada? Where certain parts of the economy are socialized? In Canada though, they vote for the benefit, and then vote down the tax increase to pay for it. Then the government goes ahead and raises the taxes anywise to help pay for it, because they believe it is a good idea.
This is a problem. It seems to me that everyone wants to have a free lunch and not pay for anything. You have to work or pay for it somehow. It is not free nor given out of thin air. Maybe education, would help. Assuming willing participants, for you can lead a horse to water, yet they will drink when and if they are ready.
Robert,
I said these things in my last post:
Rich Parsons said:
I have no problem with a fair wage. I have no problem someone getting what the market can provide.
I have no problem with someone making a fair wage to live off of. I do have a problem with cashier's making 8+ times other people. You say the "Math" does not make sense. Now do you understand why it did not make sense in Genesee County? Why it did not make sense to support further Union action for pay raises? A rebalance was required. It did occur. Many of the small business went out of business. The large chains closed down stores, and non-union people bought the stores and opened them 90 days later, while hiring n at non-union wages.
rmcrobertson said:
Cashiers do not make eight to ten times minimum wage, so the "math," you cite makes little sense to me.
Cashiers did make 8 times what others made in 1976 in Genesee county. This is the most extreme ratio, yet it did exist until the readjustment occurred.
rmcrobertson said:
And again--since you never quite seem to respond--exactly how do you propose that hard-working people who happen to work in groceries survive, pay mortgages, feed their kids, handle college expenses and medical expenses, if they do not get paid a decent wage and they do not get benefits? What precisely do you suggest that they do?
Robert: See above. I have no problem with people making a living. I did not come from money. One grand mother worked in the school district only after my grandfather broke his back falling 30 feet from a tree. The grand father maybe had 8th grade education. The parents of those grandparents were small dirt farmers. The other grandparents were farmers, and my grand mother was also a field-trained nurse who worked in the hospitals during the winter. This meant they had to leave the farm and live in a basement of other relatives just to get by. My Mother got a scholarship for one year in France, and took it. She then came back and went to a religious university as both grand parents were very religious. The school allowed for them to help work off and pay off over time their tuition. This is where she meets my father. My father was getting an education for being a dental technician in those days. It was his job to make the crowns and the false teeth, and plates, etc., ..., . He could not get a job in his home state. He came out to Michigan with his new bride. He moved to find work. Once here, he could not just get by alone. My mother would reupholster chairs and couches for extra money as they say to pay the bills. My mother would even trade her labor with starting doctors so they could get used equipment for their waiting room or tables, and she could recover them for exchange of services. Yes, it was funny to see that exchange occurring as a young child when others would pay cash, and instead they looked up numbers in a book for my family and me.
MY father left the dental business for two reason. The Auto manufacturers made more money, and also could get health benefits. Even with those health benefits, my mother still did her side jobs to help pay the bills including medical and food. My Mother later worked as a bus driver, and even was my own bus drive for school. Imagine the pain for most kids. I cared not. I always smiled and said yes, that is my mom!
Our vacations were going north to a campsite and camping for two weeks. We did not travel nor had lots of toys, yet I did not feel bad.
Later my Mother Died of Cancer over a three year period while I was in High school. This meant I had to step up and do more while in high school. I had to help my younger brother and my Dad. I had responsibilities to my family. I had jobs to help pay for my lunch money and or spending money.
In college I started out in U of M Flint not Ann Arbor, because I with a little help from my father could afford it. I later transferred to U of M Ann Arbor, and ran out of money real fast and changed majors and came back to U of M Flint. I graduated in 6 years because I had to work 40 to 60 hours a week to help pay for the college. I wanted it so I did it. I did not have new cars, nor did I have designer clothes, nor all the toys, nor cash to spend. Yet, I made my choices.
I graduate, found a job, got married, and then later divorced. All based upon me. It was not someone else. I did not wait for someone to come along and give me something. I went out and found a way to do it myself, yes with some help from my family, as I stated. Yet, we were neither by far the worse off nor the best off. Yet, I seemed to be able to make a step up as people will say it, in the social standing, because now I am an engineer.
Yet, to get there, I got beat, and stabbed, and shot at, and worked late hours, ..., . All in the name of my goal and desire. I recognize that maybe not everyone can do what I did. Maybe they are not as lucky as I was, and may have been killed or serious hurt.
I have a close friend. Barely graduate high school. The woman he married just wanted to stay home and raise kids. They were and are some of the happiest people I know. They live in a small house, they rent, they have one car, that I gave them, until they can pay me. I do not expect payment. They have two kids, that call me Uncle. I buy them presents and toys for birthdays and holidays, yet nether child is hurting for cloths, food, toys, or even love. Yes, the mother now works, and he makes $14 an hour. Yes, it is difficult, sometimes they are late on phone bills or what have you. Yet, they do live and in my opinion raised a couple of nice kids. Could it be easier for them? Yes it could. With out just plain giving them something, I do not know how it could be done. Both of them are proud and happy people. They do not get upset with me and my house, or my convertible, or my truck. They are happy where they are.
My Brother has no degree and makes $65K a year writing software for a grocery store, for their database and ordering system. He taught himself how to code and went out and trained himself and found what he wanted.
I have another high school friend who did something similar. Except he makes $75k + (* More than me
*) with no degree. He is graduating this semester with a 4-year degree from the U of Phoenix. He worked his way into a position, works lots of hours because he is over his head, and then also got trained and school at the companies expense. I am happy for him. His mother never worked, except raise kids
, and his father was a truck driver. It was not handed to him either.
I have another friend whose parents' own a small take out restaurant. He got some help just like I did going through school, and he paid for the rest by working. He worked in an outsource shop and went to school on their dime after his parents could no longer help him. He got a job making good money and then got his master's degree, and now makes even more money. All because he wanted it, and found a way to make it happen.
I have a few more friends, that are similar, yet I think you get the point.
We all wanted something, or were happy and did what was necessary.
So, please explain to me, how the little guy is to get a head? Some people do, others do not. I do not believe it is because of the system holding them back and or keeping them in their place. Once again, just my opinion, based upon my experiences.
Rich Parsons said:
Question on Bethlehem Steel. Did not the new company that bought them out have to provide for their retirement account? If not then was it a percentage on the dollar, or nothing at all?
Could you point me in the right direction here.
You state I do not answer you. I think I do. Yet, you do not answer me, or at least I do not see it.
Rich Parsons said:
As to Social Security, I agree that it looks bad. Could we agree that people who never paid in should not pull out? Can we agree that it should be used as supplement in retirement, and not for disabilities? Those disabilities may deserve to be compensated by our society, yet not from the social security fund. A new tax would have to be raised to pay for these other payments from out the social security fund.
:asian:
Any Comments about the Monster Social Security?
