Cruentus
Grandmaster
Oopps...I almost forgot.
6....5.....4 days left!
:boing2:
6....5.....4 days left!
:boing2:
Farenheit 9/11
- Thread starter michaeledward
- Start date
Tulisan said:
I guess I need to go find something else to do Friday
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Just for the sheer hell of it:
1. "Moore is a jerk." Oh, really. Have you met? How do you happen to know this? Did he kick your dog, your cat, your kid? It's quite common to make these assumptions about personality when we disagree, especially about serious issues--I tend to feel that Ronald Reagan was a creep, for example--but it isn't rational, and it very likely isn't accurate.
2. He's playing a character--don't let the, "cinema verite," quality of his films fool you. It's a construct, not a person.
3. You're offended by what he seems to have to say? Fine. I'm offended by the fact that I can flip on the radio every day of the week and hear Michael Savage spout bile, or Rush Limbaugh personally insult people with whom he disagrees, and the whole sick crew of 'em attack their fellow Americans' decency and patriotism simply because they disagree with their political and intellectual stands. I'm angered by the fact that I can flip on the radio and hear these bozos call for various forms of violence against other human beings--and get paid very well for it, too, thank you. I'm even pissed off by the fact that I can flip on the TV and see the likes of Bill O'Reilly do pretty much the same, a little more politely, intelligently and discreetly; that there's a host of these guys who have followed McLauglin in convincincing people that screaming and bullying is the same thing as discussion and dissent. Oh, and I don't much care for their, "poor, poor, miserable, picked-upon by those meanie liberals," approach, either. It's not intelligent, it's not funny, it's mean-spirited stupidity being broadcast by handsomely-paid propagandists.
4. So, when Moore gets a regular TV and/or radio show, and gets paid several mil a year to call people traitors, and immoral, and all the rest of it, why, then you can afford to be offended too. When he gets paid to demand that people be thrown out of the country, or hanged, or shot, you can get offended too. Until then, I guess you're going to have to take umbrage at his calling for the enforcement of the law. I guess you'll have to remain miffed about his constant, reiterated assertion that even rich and powerful people ought to be called to account for what they do, and that everybody ought to get a fair break. Oooh wow, now that's un-American.
5. A lot of what people get upset about is the simple portrayal of reality. It's the mirroring that does it, just as in Frederick Wiseman's films, and martial artists ought to know a little something about mirroring.
6. So if'n you don't like the movies, say so by all means. Attack the facts and show where they're wrong. Expose the times that Moore distorts reality, citing your sources for better information. Or would that take work, and knowledge?
7. Sheesh.
1. "Moore is a jerk." Oh, really. Have you met? How do you happen to know this? Did he kick your dog, your cat, your kid? It's quite common to make these assumptions about personality when we disagree, especially about serious issues--I tend to feel that Ronald Reagan was a creep, for example--but it isn't rational, and it very likely isn't accurate.
2. He's playing a character--don't let the, "cinema verite," quality of his films fool you. It's a construct, not a person.
3. You're offended by what he seems to have to say? Fine. I'm offended by the fact that I can flip on the radio every day of the week and hear Michael Savage spout bile, or Rush Limbaugh personally insult people with whom he disagrees, and the whole sick crew of 'em attack their fellow Americans' decency and patriotism simply because they disagree with their political and intellectual stands. I'm angered by the fact that I can flip on the radio and hear these bozos call for various forms of violence against other human beings--and get paid very well for it, too, thank you. I'm even pissed off by the fact that I can flip on the TV and see the likes of Bill O'Reilly do pretty much the same, a little more politely, intelligently and discreetly; that there's a host of these guys who have followed McLauglin in convincincing people that screaming and bullying is the same thing as discussion and dissent. Oh, and I don't much care for their, "poor, poor, miserable, picked-upon by those meanie liberals," approach, either. It's not intelligent, it's not funny, it's mean-spirited stupidity being broadcast by handsomely-paid propagandists.
4. So, when Moore gets a regular TV and/or radio show, and gets paid several mil a year to call people traitors, and immoral, and all the rest of it, why, then you can afford to be offended too. When he gets paid to demand that people be thrown out of the country, or hanged, or shot, you can get offended too. Until then, I guess you're going to have to take umbrage at his calling for the enforcement of the law. I guess you'll have to remain miffed about his constant, reiterated assertion that even rich and powerful people ought to be called to account for what they do, and that everybody ought to get a fair break. Oooh wow, now that's un-American.
5. A lot of what people get upset about is the simple portrayal of reality. It's the mirroring that does it, just as in Frederick Wiseman's films, and martial artists ought to know a little something about mirroring.
6. So if'n you don't like the movies, say so by all means. Attack the facts and show where they're wrong. Expose the times that Moore distorts reality, citing your sources for better information. Or would that take work, and knowledge?
7. Sheesh.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Rich Parsons said:
Come on Rich! Come drink the cool-aid with us! I'll be doctoring up my 9th degree black belt certificate, then it's too the theatre we go.
We've got a party goin' on so far. It's Kate and I for sure. Nate and some chick might come. If my other Brother Jim comes, you nestle up with him during the movie so you won't have to watch the scary parts. :rofl:
Come party with us!
artyon:
rmcrobertson said:
Robert not sure if this was directed at me or anyone in particular.
So here goes.
1) Yes, we meet.
2) In character that might be fine, but like I said before, he did not wish to do a followup about Flint, when he could not paint the big companies in the bad light. One sided.
3) I do not like Rush either, and like I said before if he has a movie I would not recommend to go to it either.
4) I am offended, because he stated he helped out Flint. I still do not see the results of his help.
5) I use the mirror tactic myself here for posting, and it usually makes the point. The difference is that I admit that I am not 100% right all the time.
6) I did post where he distorted the truth. He found a red neck who sold rabbits for food or pets. He made it sound like everyone from Flint had to eat rabbits to get by because the big ole bad corp put them on the street. He stated he helped out Flint and it is better because of his movie. I do not see it. It is better because people know there is not chance of getting a job with with the big bad corp. Also to do with the multiple universities and collegees that have sprung up, and or grown in the last 20 years. Nothing to do with his propaganda about the big bad corp hurting the little worker. I discussed this earlier, about the wages and the issues involved. Sorry if I did not explain it well to you and others.
7) I agree Sheesh!
Tulisan said:Come on Rich! Come drink the cool-aid with us! I'll be doctoring up my 9th degree black belt certificate, then it's too the theatre we go.
We've got a party goin' on so far. It's Kate and I for sure. Nate and some chick might come. If my other Brother Jim comes, you nestle up with him during the movie so you won't have to watch the scary parts. :rofl:
Come party with us!
No Kool-aid for me. And I thought Jim Jones was out of the business. Oh you mean your little brother Jimmy.
Robert
You can't see it, but I lit and held aloft a lighter while reading #3.
Rich
I imagine it must be frustruating for the folks in Flint who didn't see help coming from the film distribution. I still think it was a worthwhile documentary - I certainly didn't get the impression from the rabbit woman that all the folks in Flint were doing likewise, just that woman. But I can understand being a person living in town and being pissed that I thought that was how my town was being portrayed.
FM
You can't see it, but I lit and held aloft a lighter while reading #3.
Rich
I imagine it must be frustruating for the folks in Flint who didn't see help coming from the film distribution. I still think it was a worthwhile documentary - I certainly didn't get the impression from the rabbit woman that all the folks in Flint were doing likewise, just that woman. But I can understand being a person living in town and being pissed that I thought that was how my town was being portrayed.
FM
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Sorry, Rich, but when you met--what exactly did he do to you that was so bad?
I'd also note that it's not exactly distorting the facts if you portray what's real. The, "Pets or Meat," lady's real, right? He ran into her sign driving down the street while filming, right? Yes, the context's important--but he simply filmed what he saw, in this case. He didn't make her up, any more than he made up the bank that passes out guns in, "Bowling for Columbine."
I still cannot see exactly how in the hell Moore's responsible for GM pulling out of Flint, or what's happened in the--what, 20 years?--since "Roger & Me," came out. What, Mike started corporate capitalism and its present internationalist trend? He passed NAFTA? Huh?
If he took credit for anything good that happened in Flint afterwards, that's bad. (Not as bad as, say, launching an undeclared war for no particular really good reason, or cheating old ladies out of gas and electricity money, or gassing Bhopal, but bad.) But I still don't see anything awful--Savage and his ilk, too, do far worse things and carry out far worse distortions five nights a week, and I don't see a thread here bemoaning that.
Hm.
I'd also note that it's not exactly distorting the facts if you portray what's real. The, "Pets or Meat," lady's real, right? He ran into her sign driving down the street while filming, right? Yes, the context's important--but he simply filmed what he saw, in this case. He didn't make her up, any more than he made up the bank that passes out guns in, "Bowling for Columbine."
I still cannot see exactly how in the hell Moore's responsible for GM pulling out of Flint, or what's happened in the--what, 20 years?--since "Roger & Me," came out. What, Mike started corporate capitalism and its present internationalist trend? He passed NAFTA? Huh?
If he took credit for anything good that happened in Flint afterwards, that's bad. (Not as bad as, say, launching an undeclared war for no particular really good reason, or cheating old ladies out of gas and electricity money, or gassing Bhopal, but bad.) But I still don't see anything awful--Savage and his ilk, too, do far worse things and carry out far worse distortions five nights a week, and I don't see a thread here bemoaning that.
Hm.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Heh. My turn to rant. Or...how about I let our frind Mike do it for us...
From: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php
Silly me...I thought I would be free to see this movie regardless. Darned civil liberties...who needs em'? Looks like I'll be having to double check a theater near me.
Love or hate the guy, shouldn't it make ya'll wonder why a film with (according to claims, but we;ll have to see) no more violence then what is on the daily news would have an R rating. Hmmm...and PR groups being paid to preassure theaters into not seeing the film...?
Naw...but we don't have a problem in our country...not at all. If everyone just works real hard, then we'll all be happy. Haliburton for President...
Your Friend,
Thomas E. Dewey
From: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php
Silly me...I thought I would be free to see this movie regardless. Darned civil liberties...who needs em'? Looks like I'll be having to double check a theater near me.
Love or hate the guy, shouldn't it make ya'll wonder why a film with (according to claims, but we;ll have to see) no more violence then what is on the daily news would have an R rating. Hmmm...and PR groups being paid to preassure theaters into not seeing the film...?
Naw...but we don't have a problem in our country...not at all. If everyone just works real hard, then we'll all be happy. Haliburton for President...
Your Friend,
Thomas E. Dewey
OP
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
- Thread Starter
- #90
I was reading the michael moore web site ... apparently, both Al Franken and Bill O'Reilly were in attendance for the New York screening. It's a good thing that the theater was big.
I hear that O'Reilly (who has been doing a good job of slamming, while not slamming the movie) left before the movie was 1/2 way complete. Of course, that doesn't stop him from proclaiming that Moore is a liar.
Also of note, Moore has set up a 'Rapid Response Fact Check' team to address the rants that the movie generates. When some talking head says that XYZ in the movie isn't true, Moore will respond with what was in the movie, why it was included, and what was left out of the movie for insufficient evidence.
Of course, those that don't care to know, won't check. But it will be nice, for those who care to know, can find more information than just what the movie projects.
Mike
I hear that O'Reilly (who has been doing a good job of slamming, while not slamming the movie) left before the movie was 1/2 way complete. Of course, that doesn't stop him from proclaiming that Moore is a liar.
Also of note, Moore has set up a 'Rapid Response Fact Check' team to address the rants that the movie generates. When some talking head says that XYZ in the movie isn't true, Moore will respond with what was in the movie, why it was included, and what was left out of the movie for insufficient evidence.
Of course, those that don't care to know, won't check. But it will be nice, for those who care to know, can find more information than just what the movie projects.
Mike
rmcrobertson said:
Robert,
He did not answer my questions. He just walked away, and then later left town quietly.
As to the rabbit lady, I could find others just like her in any large city. Turth is the perception of truth. If I only give one perception and this is all people see then that becomes the truth to them.
Oh, and I cannot believe you actually went and did this. You changed the subject, and lofted a red herring out there. Robert, I thought better of you. I agree you are looking for facts. I maybe a single data point in a 100 million people. Yet, whe asked, I will give the data I have and the truth as I see it.
:asian:
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Sounds to me, Rich, like you can't stand what the guy's saying and you're looking for reasons after the fact.
If he quietly walked away, I don't quite see how that makes him the devil. Hate to say it, but isn't that what martial artists are supposed to do, rather than fight?
And again, I don't see that he's made anything up. I don't see that he's grossly distorted what he saw. And I don't see how he stuck it to Flint--or has GM brought all the jobs back?
There're very few voices in this country that still offer more than the Official Market Line, and Moore's one of 'em. Moreover, he's one of the few still sticking up for plain old working people, and their right to have a decent job for decent pay.
I wonder why it is that nobody ever gets on these forums and screams when, say, Levi-Strauss pulls its last jobs out of this country. I wonder why more people don't find it a tad offensive when programming jobs and tax returns start gettting shipped to India, so even if you HAVE busted your tail and retrained, you're still screwed. I wonder why Moore's the issue--ok, actually I don't wonder. It's because he's not radical enough, right?
Nope. It's because he's more or less showing reality, and that reality conforms neither to the chirpy propaganda we get from TV and business, nor to the whacko distortions of everything coming out of the Bush administration.
If he quietly walked away, I don't quite see how that makes him the devil. Hate to say it, but isn't that what martial artists are supposed to do, rather than fight?
And again, I don't see that he's made anything up. I don't see that he's grossly distorted what he saw. And I don't see how he stuck it to Flint--or has GM brought all the jobs back?
There're very few voices in this country that still offer more than the Official Market Line, and Moore's one of 'em. Moreover, he's one of the few still sticking up for plain old working people, and their right to have a decent job for decent pay.
I wonder why it is that nobody ever gets on these forums and screams when, say, Levi-Strauss pulls its last jobs out of this country. I wonder why more people don't find it a tad offensive when programming jobs and tax returns start gettting shipped to India, so even if you HAVE busted your tail and retrained, you're still screwed. I wonder why Moore's the issue--ok, actually I don't wonder. It's because he's not radical enough, right?
Nope. It's because he's more or less showing reality, and that reality conforms neither to the chirpy propaganda we get from TV and business, nor to the whacko distortions of everything coming out of the Bush administration.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Rich and few others are acceptions to this rule, but...
I'd say that for most people, they don't like Moore or what anyone has to say that they don't agree with because they can't think out of their idiolectic box; as they cling to their perception of reality like a child clings to a security blank it at night to make the monsters go away.
Unfortunatily, no one can be told what the matrix is...you have to see it for yourself.
Some would rather just take the blue pill....
Your mentor,
Morpheus
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Oh yea...
3 days left...
3 days left...
