Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
My opinion:
Not my style, though I am sure that they have a use for some.
Not my style, though I am sure that they have a use for some.
Fancy Kicks
- Thread starter Zepp
- Start date
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
No offense, but if you ask Kenpo people if high, jumping, or spinning kicks work outside, what do you think the answer will be?
They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.
They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.
Sarah
Senior Master
I havenÂ’t read this whole thread, but here are my thoughts.
On occasion we train fancy, jumping, spinning, flying kicks etc....we donÂ’t really train them in a real life sense, just for fun really. As well as agility etc, I find it works wonders on my confidence. IÂ’m only a beginner and when we play around with fancy kicks, you will often see most people in the class start off slow and cautious, small jumps, not kicking to hard, afraid of falling over etc....then after a while, we're jumping, twisting, flying, kicking hard, with big dumb smiles on our faces...lol....its a lot of fun, and can be quite a work out too.
On occasion we train fancy, jumping, spinning, flying kicks etc....we donÂ’t really train them in a real life sense, just for fun really. As well as agility etc, I find it works wonders on my confidence. IÂ’m only a beginner and when we play around with fancy kicks, you will often see most people in the class start off slow and cautious, small jumps, not kicking to hard, afraid of falling over etc....then after a while, we're jumping, twisting, flying, kicking hard, with big dumb smiles on our faces...lol....its a lot of fun, and can be quite a work out too.
Sin
2nd Black Belt
Showing off = Playing around
I never show off saying, "Oh I'am the best there ever was" Because there are people that can beat me and I respect those that can as well as the ones that can not. Respect and honor is what I am all about, I only show off/play around when its with little kids showing them a spinning jump kick or something. Or with my friends with a Twi-Te or something like that. When they ask me what i have been learning in MA class I show them something thats a little flashy and they enjoy it. now if i broke down the way I do m stances and told them about it. I don't think they will ejoy it very much.
I never show off saying, "Oh I'am the best there ever was" Because there are people that can beat me and I respect those that can as well as the ones that can not. Respect and honor is what I am all about, I only show off/play around when its with little kids showing them a spinning jump kick or something. Or with my friends with a Twi-Te or something like that. When they ask me what i have been learning in MA class I show them something thats a little flashy and they enjoy it. now if i broke down the way I do m stances and told them about it. I don't think they will ejoy it very much.
K
kenpo_guy
Guest
Not my style, but I know 3 guys who they work well for, but only 1 really uses them a lot. I never cared for fancy kicks, most of the time maybe you can get 1 off, but after that they are easy to read. High kicks have never been my style either, I don't trust them. The way I see it, is there is too much distance for the foot to travel from the ground to the head, when my fists are much closer. My kicks stay from the mid section down, I mostly use kicks to keep people at bay.
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
I am in agreement with you there, I read a story about a person from a Korean art (not knocking Korean arts by the way) who challenged Mister Parker to kick him in the head, whereby he swept his feet out from under him and put his foot on his face...kenpo_guy said:
My take on this is why try to get my foot up to someones head, when his groin is closer, and will in turn bring his head down to my foot...
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
My opinion of the higher level Korean-style kicks is this: aside from the fact that, under the right conditions, they do have uses and do work, we practice these kicks for another reason. One of the hallmarks of Tae Kwon Do and Korean arts is to constantly test yourself and see what the body is capable of. If all you focus on is low or mid level kicks because you perceive high kicks as being useless, you will never see what you are capable of. Tae Kwon Do is more than just being concerned with self defense. We practice jumping, flying, spinning, jump-spinning, and other kicks to to see if we can do them, regardless of whether or not we will ever be able to use them in a self defense situation.
This is one reason why I consider RBSD so limiting. It only concerns itself with one narrow aspect of martial arts training, instead of being a total package. The human body and mind are beautiful things, and traditional martial arts gives us a chance to see exactly what this wonderful machine is capable of. Kind of like bying a car strictly to get you from point A to point B. You get this stripped down model that is strictly utilitarian that is no fun to own.
If you only focus on low and middle kicks, or only kicking to the knee for self defense, you are severely limiting yourself.
This is one reason why I consider RBSD so limiting. It only concerns itself with one narrow aspect of martial arts training, instead of being a total package. The human body and mind are beautiful things, and traditional martial arts gives us a chance to see exactly what this wonderful machine is capable of. Kind of like bying a car strictly to get you from point A to point B. You get this stripped down model that is strictly utilitarian that is no fun to own.
If you only focus on low and middle kicks, or only kicking to the knee for self defense, you are severely limiting yourself.
I think it's funny calling high kicks "fancy". In Taekwondo, anything to the chest and up is normal and that includes spinning and jumping. It's the flying triple kick over three people, the rebound breaks like a double front rebound then jump spin heel, the throw up three boards and hit/break them all one at a time or all at once, those are the fancy kicks to us. Taekwondo, in my opinion raises the bar to what the body can do..like Mich.TKD said. We normally kick over the head, those are not "fancy" except to people who don't practice them and don't have the capability.
BTW I didn't vote, 'cause none of those applied. TW
BTW I didn't vote, 'cause none of those applied. TW
AC_Pilot
Blue Belt
So forgive me if I'm repeating something.. these high, jumping, spinning kicks kicks were developed in early Northern China so that warriors on foot could counter Mongol horsemen. I don't see too many of those around today so I don't train in these kicks. In fact excepting the explosive shuffling flat footwork for forward moving attack kicks (low line) and a few scissor kicks, my off-foot is generally planted when I kick, and they do not go higher than the ribs or heart area (Savate) Usually much lower, like the knee or groin (Pananjakman, Wing Chun) I have only sparred with one guy who I could not trap every time (using Praying Mantis concepts, Aikido can work here also) He managed to get two good head kicks in..out of many tried that I trapped. He was blazingly fast and very powerful. And I always put these kickers on the ground when they tried the high kicks, they leave you wide open and vulnerable. Won't work on the street against most seasoned attackers.
AC_Pilot
Blue Belt
MJS, dude.. if I oblique kick http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jeetkunedomasterclass1.htm someone in the knee, head on you will most likely hear first a "crack" or Crunch" followed by screaming and them going down on the spot. I target the knee if possible, not the shin. I've had my knee taken out if a sparring ring and it was the end of any chance to continue fighting. I was not able to run again for a year and it could have been worse. I needed a cane for a month. Knees are a top target for JKD folks (and other pure arts) because it's a serious destruction and disabler. In addition if you want to escape this will be your chance.. they won't chase you with a seriously damaged knee, I could barely stand, my leg felt like rubber!
Miles
Senior Master
Perhaps originally, but I think many of the fancy kicks practiced today in many TKD dojang are of relatively recent origin. Also, the Mike Chats of the world are always looking to improve on what they can do-pretty inspiring stuff. If you are simply training for self-defense, why not just carry a gun?AC_Pilot said:
Most fully-committed attacks or defenses, will mean that you are wide open and vulnerable. For example, in football, if the defense is blitzing the quarterback, it generally means they either sack him or suffer a completed pass (Go Pats!). Whether you are kicking someone in the head or the groin means your own groin is open.AC_Pilot said:
Miles
AC_Pilot
Blue Belt
OK, a few points: Not every self defense situation allows for lethal force! In fact most do not. I don't want to end up in prison with the bad guys, thank you.. hence I train in real world combative arts, including restraint and energy control-channeling arts, like Dumog for instance. I do carry at least one handgun, and sometimes two or three, (backups) depending. But that's no indication that I will use them, the situation is what warrants the measured response. Have I used less lethal techniques when armed? yes, several times.
The way we JKD folks get around the vulnerability aspect you mention? Well, there are numerous ways to do this but one way that works nicely in many encounters is the high-low-high of Praying Mantis (and a few other arts have this concept, like Panantukman) this confuses the attacker as to what's next and overwhelms them, theoretically. it gets them thinking more about defense and why the heck did I get into this? mentality. When you seek to enter trapping range ...
(where we want to fight because no other arts train to fight there, here's more info: http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm )
and we then get a "destruction" (could be a good eye jab, gunting muscle and/or nerve destruction, etc..) then with that reaction and disabling shot we can enter trapping range, maybe straight blast them backwards with the flurry of vertical fists, and then is when we deliver something like an oblique kick as a finishing shot. You don't start out with it, it's part of a progressive attack (either direct or indirect)
The way we JKD folks get around the vulnerability aspect you mention? Well, there are numerous ways to do this but one way that works nicely in many encounters is the high-low-high of Praying Mantis (and a few other arts have this concept, like Panantukman) this confuses the attacker as to what's next and overwhelms them, theoretically. it gets them thinking more about defense and why the heck did I get into this? mentality. When you seek to enter trapping range ...
(where we want to fight because no other arts train to fight there, here's more info: http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm )
and we then get a "destruction" (could be a good eye jab, gunting muscle and/or nerve destruction, etc..) then with that reaction and disabling shot we can enter trapping range, maybe straight blast them backwards with the flurry of vertical fists, and then is when we deliver something like an oblique kick as a finishing shot. You don't start out with it, it's part of a progressive attack (either direct or indirect)
AC_Pilot said:
AC- I think you misunderstood a post. The quote that you have here was not from me, but from MichTKD. Check out post #62.
As for the low kicks... you and I are thinking the same here. Personally speaking, I'm more of a low line kicker. I have a few guys that I workout with who are into JKD. I definately can see the value of the lower kicks.
Mike
OP
OP
Zepp
Master of Arts
It's good to see this thread revived again. I just want to clarify one thing however. When I used the term "fancy kicks" in the initial post of this thread, I didn't mean high kicks. I intended this thread to be about kicks that involved jumping, spinning, or some combination of the two. 
Just in case anyone was wondering.
Just in case anyone was wondering.
It's good to see this thread revived again. I just want to clarify one thing however. When I used the term "fancy kicks" in the initial post of this thread, I didn't mean high kicks. I intended this thread to be about kicks that involved jumping, spinning, or some combination of the two.
That's the problem with polls of this sort. To my mind, there's nothing particularly fancy about a spinning back kick.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Maybe they are useful, but I personally don't like them. I need to keep myself rooted to the ground with both feet so I can draw more power up from the ground. After all, I'm only 5'7". I need all the assistance I can get since I personally don't have much mass to me!
Similar threads
