falseness in training

[Gerry Seymour]

Like I said in the same post, ones such as losing weight or learning a skill.

Ah, so you're referring to those side benefits of training that folks sometimes aren't thinking about. Got it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Karate began as a practical fighting system by warriors who proved themselves in their profession and street fights. It was a combat art. Still, the masters taught restraint and respect as well as spiritual harmony. Then, a century ago, karate was watered down as it was being introduced into the Japanese/Okinawan school system.

After WWII and Korean War the art was brought to the USA and became a commercial venture. The katas were still taught, but minus the true meaning of the moves in many cases. Gone were the joint locks and breaks, the pressure point attacks and grappling. Now there is a resurgence in discovering these moves hidden in the traditional katas.

There are dojos that teach the true karate tradition - they are just few and far between. Modern karate has many facets so appeals to many for many reasons. Good luck in finding what you're looking for.

 

[Utahblaine]

A) because people are free to do as they please unless it violates the law.
B) because who is anyone to decide what the 'true form' of martial arts is?

It is interesting you say that because I invented my own Tai Chi. And so am a grand master in that art.

And the focus is definitely on fun.

Which is the most important aspect of martial arts anyway.

This is my thought of martial arts as a general activity.
I'm not sure I agree with that one. The most important part of martial arts as a whole isn't fun. Martial arts came from necessity. It came from war, from survival. It has evolved into a discipline and is most certainly fun to practice. If the # 1 goal is to have fun then there is no discipline which is what the selling point of Americanized martial arts largely is.
I'm glad that your having fun as you should, I just cant say with my heart that fun is the most important aspect of any martial arts training. Fun doesn't change lives or protect people from bullies, attackers, bad habits, poor health, or any other problems. it may help but is only a side effect of the initial goals.

Again, it comes down to purpose. If someone is teaching MA for fun, and people are learning it for fun, there's no reason that is a diet shake. Sounds like a milk shake, to me. And as long as nobody is being told it's diet, there's no reason it should be.
No harshness intended, I just love discussion. It's how Iearn a grow.

Hey there. I am a martial artist of 12 + years in my 20's with almost 9 of years being some degree of teaching.

I have recently retired from teaching as I have decided to move on and enter into new fields. Being a new dad is one of them.

I'm seeking a new take on things that have been weighing very heavy on my mind. let me begin.

The last two years were very tough for me even though some good things were happening. I tested and received my Third Degree Black in our system and 6 months later was given the official title of Sensei As well. This Title in my Dojo held only for long term teachers who have proven themselves worthy of high regard among our circle schools.

This time was hard however, because I was really beginning to question my abilities and the methods that were used to build them.


We practice a known type of american karate with the addition of a number of different disciplines. It is it's own mixed "style".

We focus hard on memorizing long, scripted, and often very complicated "self-Defense" Techniques, and many forms or Kata. I became a top performer in what I now call Regurgitating. I feel as though I don't have what I would call Ad lib skills or real time Sparing/combat skills. This was an area rarely discussed or practiced. When this topic was touched on or we would "train" it, we would do about three or four rounds lasting about 30 seconds at best. Enough time for one punch or kick to be thrown.

Me being a younger man, I liked to push my self and others too. When I could I would have my students spar safely but effort and focus as well. I felt that The ability to experience being tired and/ adrenaline while making decisions and movements was important.

As time passed while teaching there and the standards for what it took for our students to pass their "tests" lowered or my opinion and knowledge of the subject grew, I became more and more disconnected and even disgusted with my school and myself. The amount of students that "earned their Black Belts without having any actual ability or ever having shown any real effort in any areas was killing me. I began to see this falseness even more in my self.

I was good at coming up with ideas for drills, for workouts, for marketing, for all kinds of things. I liked to problem solve and come up with solutions. Realism is something that for me, is a must have. That's why I could see certain problems. I tried hard not to shy away from the truth no matter how hard, or disappointing it was. I'ts what helped me be a good teacher.

This is where problems grew. I started asking tough questions related to training and our school philosophy. Questions like what if this happens or what if my attacker doesn't react like the techniques says he will? What about adrenaline? what about mental and physical toughness? what about reaction time or what about Cadio and breathing. I was told That I was just to young and naive.

When the subject of kata was brought to my teachers my attention. I asked the mother of all questions. Why? What is the point? I was given a few shallow and cookie cutter answers like, kata is meant to help you practice without a partner, to train your memory, to improve fluidity of motion, to visualize the techniques. I personally know more ways that kata can be beneficial but neither these answered or my own were ever given out. I had to dig and interview my teacher to get them. I would ask my this question once. " Could it be said that the time spent practicing Kata and other things be better spent training something else?" My answer was yes!!!! There are so many ways to do all that was said about kata and mre with different methods.When I stated how I felt, I was told that I just didn't understand the system.

The long thought out and trial and error based conclusion is that we were practicing not for Self-Defense like we advertised, or for the betterment of the students and not to be the "best of the best" like our school chant said but, to preserve the traditions of old and to sell memberships. We did things the same without innovation or consideration of changing times. The world is changing and we were literally training by the same scripts from a select few figure heads from the recent past. Having said this to my direct teacher who I love and respect, I was told " sometimes we have to practice what (Anounamous) said because obviously he knew better then we do, so we have to practice blindly without knowing why". That statement hit me harder then any and the effect it had on me still lasts. It is by definition the meaning of the word cult.

I was later informed how my perception was that Martial Arts is all about "violence" and that my movies for training were wrong. I don't think this at all. There are far too many good things that MA teaches and I do not over look them. Respect, perseverance, humility, confidence, health Etc.. are all framed exampled in my school. They just were never used to their full potential or at really. Heightening ability and overcoming challenges is what I would argue is what creates confidence in students and with the encouragement of a leader or teacher, the effect can be ten fold more. Violence however is a factor. It's real it's push upon us all the time. I feel that a student should know that and be able to handle it or you cant say that you teach "self-Defense" or combat. Understanding of the nature of violence is impalpable for a "Black Belt".

To me failure can be the biggest teacher and motivator if used correctly by a gracious but real teacher. Failure wast an option as I was reminded at every fake test. It wast not do to us not excepting failure but the opposite. Failure meant that a student was more like to quit and stop paying. This meant that no matter how lazy, n focused, disrespectful or unknowlegible of the material a student was, we were to find a way to pass them. I could not do it any more.

I even wrote to the owner and master instructor of the school and told him in detail and with with respectful words how I was feeling and asked for something to ease my mind. I didn't receive it. Instead I heard excuses for why we do things the way we do. Nothing got better, but my disappointment hit a new level.

I still love martial arts but I cant hold back my anger to my personal experience with it. Don't get me wrong, there was also a great deal of good things I and many gained from their time there. The leaders just seam to refuse the to evolve, to innovate, change.

I may be young but I have been told that I am an old soul, I love history, I love philosophy, but I also love the realness and rawness of what exists in martial arts. I earn for change and innovation in myself and my training.

The last question I'll mention is one I ask my self. Would this school be one that you would take your doughtier to? My answer would have to be no. My personal View what the best school type for training is one where we hold certain valuers and respect of a tradition dojo with the realism and tested methods of a Combat Gym. They are neither.

I feel as though I am mostly fake as a teacher and as a artist myself. I feel that I should wash my hands and move on to better things.

What do your think? Please give me your respectful opinions. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[jobo]

This is my thought of martial arts as a general activity.
I'm not sure I agree with that one. The most important part of martial arts as a whole isn't fun. Martial arts came from necessity. It came from war, from survival. It has evolved into a discipline and is most certainly fun to practice. If the # 1 goal is to have fun then there is no discipline which is what the selling point of Americanized martial arts largely is.
I'm glad that your having fun as you should, I just cant say with my heart that fun is the most important aspect of any martial arts training. Fun doesn't change lives or protect people from bullies, attackers, bad habits, poor health, or any other problems. it may help but is only a side effect of the initial goals.

you seem intent on telling others why they should do ma, which seems to be the same issue as at your dojo.

theres only three reasons why you should do anything, ( leaving aside hygiene issues)1) you have some moral or practical obligation, 2) they pay you and 3) you enjoy it.

I suppose you could fell a moral obligation to protect yourself/ family, but it's not feudal times you dont need to be battle ready to live a long and fruitful life, if there not paying you to do ma and only a very select few get 5hat privilege, then if it's not for fun, then theres no point and you should do something else with your time that you do enjoy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you seem intent on telling others why they should do ma, which seems to be the same issue as at your dojo.

theres only three reasons why you should do anything, ( leaving aside hygiene issues)1) you have some moral or practical obligation, 2) they pay you and 3) you enjoy it.

I suppose you could fell a moral obligation to protect yourself/ family, but it's not feudal times you dont need to be battle ready to live a long and fruitful life, if there not paying you to do ma and only a very select few get 5hat privilege, then if it's not for fun, then theres no point and you should do something else with your time that you do enjoy

That's a decent summation of why I don't like to get into the notion of what MA (or much else) "should be" for others. I know what it should be for me, because that's what I want it to be in my life. I figure everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves, too.

 

[JR 137]

This is my thought of martial arts as a general activity.
I'm not sure I agree with that one. The most important part of martial arts as a whole isn't fun. Martial arts came from necessity. It came from war, from survival. It has evolved into a discipline and is most certainly fun to practice. If the # 1 goal is to have fun then there is no discipline which is what the selling point of Americanized martial arts largely is.
I'm glad that your having fun as you should, I just cant say with my heart that fun is the most important aspect of any martial arts training. Fun doesn't change lives or protect people from bullies, attackers, bad habits, poor health, or any other problems. it may help but is only a side effect of the initial goals.

My biggest problem with this, which I agree with more of it that you probably think, is why do you or I or anyone else get to make the rules for everyone else?

Furthermore, the quality or better yet seriousness, of training is on the individual. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I train hard. I laugh at myself quite a bit and have fun at my own expense during and after training. I take what I do seriously, but I don’t take myself seriously. There’s a difference between the two.

I train alongside people who aren’t there for combative purposes. They go through the motions and have fun with it. Certainly not the end of the world. The older I get the less I’m there for combative purposes, but it’s easily still the heart of what I’m doing there. I haven’t been in a fight for a good 15 years now; should I keep training at an all out ready for war intensity or should I lighten up a bit and enjoy myself. And if someone told me I have to leave because I wasn’t 100% preparing for an all out brawl every training session, I’d laugh and ask them what makes them think they get to determine if I’m allowed to train or not.

To each his own. I don’t want someone judging me, therefore I don’t judge anyone else. Without this mentality, the world is a very frustrating place. Trust me, I’ve been there. Minding everyone else’s business and trying to impose your ways on them doesn’t get anyone anywhere. The only thing you can control and make the rules for is your own stuff. Take charge of that and leave everyone else to do the same, and everything will be a lot easier.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No one can tell me why I train.
No one can tell how I should train.
No one can tell what the purpose of my training should be.

If anyone feels the need to judge me negatively because I fail to meet their personal definition of what martial arts is or should be, feel free. It won't affect me in the least.

I know why I train.

I don't know, care, or judge how anyone else trains.

I block people who irritate me.

That is all.

 

[dvcochran]

That's a decent summation of why I don't like to get into the notion of what MA (or much else) "should be" for others. I know what it should be for me, because that's what I want it to be in my life. I figure everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves, too.

I agree with the idea of not telling the random stranger what to do in a casual environment. In my work it is not unusual to tell a total stranger how to operate or interface with a machine or system. There are numerous reasons, the least of which being safety. I think it goes a step further when someone has signed up for class. The instructor(s) have a responsibility to "tell the person what to do". What is paramount to me is how they do it. We have all seen the cocky Cobra Kai bad guy instructors (forget his name). I have to smile when I see them. We have a couple at our main school even though that is not at all our GM's personality. Some is a lack of confidence, some of it is just trying really, really hard. For me it is all about intent. I do not like trying to teach people with fear tactics. It is part of what makes teaching SD skills separate from the rest of MA difficult IMHO. Aim small, miss small. Practice with calm and control, react with calm and control.

 

[dvcochran]

My biggest problem with this, which I agree with more of it that you probably think, is why do you or I or anyone else get to make the rules for everyone else?

Furthermore, the quality or better yet seriousness, of training is on the individual. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I train hard. I laugh at myself quite a bit and have fun at my own expense during and after training. I take what I do seriously, but I don’t take myself seriously. There’s a difference between the two.

I train alongside people who aren’t there for combative purposes. They go through the motions and have fun with it. Certainly not the end of the world. The older I get the less I’m there for combative purposes, but it’s easily still the heart of what I’m doing there. I haven’t been in a fight for a good 15 years now; should I keep training at an all out ready for war intensity or should I lighten up a bit and enjoy myself. And if someone told me I have to leave because I wasn’t 100% preparing for an all out brawl every training session, I’d laugh and ask them what makes them think they get to determine if I’m allowed to train or not.

To each his own. I don’t want someone judging me, therefore I don’t judge anyone else. Without this mentality, the world is a very frustrating place. Trust me, I’ve been there. Minding everyone else’s business and trying to impose your ways on them doesn’t get anyone anywhere. The only thing you can control and make the rules for is your own stuff. Take charge of that and leave everyone else to do the same, and everything will be a lot easier.

Well said. To parrot off a response I made to a @gpseymour post, a lot of what the original OP mentioned is fleshed off in a typical class. There are some that are all in and train as hard as possible along side others who don't or cant for different reasons. And some who leave because of incorrect assumptions about class. But the class material is presented the same to everyone. The sign of a good instructor is when they recognize this in different students and push them accordingly. When we line up for drills, everyone is doing the same drill on the same count. Some people can take a little more push than others when doing them. That is where the fun begins.

 

[drop bear]

That's a decent summation of why I don't like to get into the notion of what MA (or much else) "should be" for others. I know what it should be for me, because that's what I want it to be in my life. I figure everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves, too.

I think there should be a reasonable link between an activity and some sort of progress in that activity.

Swimming clubs should swim. Cooking schools should cook. Martial artists should learn to fight. If they are not then mabye change the name to better reflect the activity that they are doing.

I am pretty sure even in these martial arts social clubs you describe you can't just come in and do whatever you want.

"Hey guys mabye we should train today"

"Nah don't feel like it I will just sit here and chat instead"

 

[drop bear]

No one can tell me why I train.
No one can tell how I should train.
No one can tell what the purpose of my training should be.

If anyone feels the need to judge me negatively because I fail to meet their personal definition of what martial arts is or should be, feel free. It won't affect me in the least.

I know why I train.

I don't know, care, or judge how anyone else trains.

I block people who irritate me.

That is all.

So me and my mates could just turn up at your school and do some jujitsu rolling?

 

[dvcochran]

No one can tell me why I train.
No one can tell how I should train.
No one can tell what the purpose of my training should be.

If anyone feels the need to judge me negatively because I fail to meet their personal definition of what martial arts is or should be, feel free. It won't affect me in the least.

I know why I train.

I don't know, care, or judge how anyone else trains.

I block people who irritate me.

That is all.

Could you say the same when you first started training? Those sound like statements of maturation in your training. But we all need the "how I should train" reminder from time to time. There is always another gear or level we can find. The triggers are different for everyone. I think I get what you are saying, but why do you think you are immediately being judged when someone gets critical or challenges your training? We all need adversity to build comparators, experience. Don't know if that is what you meant but that is the way it sounds.

 

[JR 137]

So me and my mates could just turn up at your school and do some jujitsu rolling?

I don’t think he meant what techniques; I’m pretty sure he meant with what intent.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t think he meant what techniques; I’m pretty sure he meant with what intent.

I don't see why a school should restrict or decide for me what training I do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Could you say the same when you first started training? Those sound like statements of maturation in your training. But we all need the "how I should train" reminder from time to time. There is always another gear or level we can find. The triggers are different for everyone. I think I get what you are saying, but why do you think you are immediately being judged when someone gets critical or challenges your training? We all need adversity to build comparators, experience. Don't know if that is what you meant but that is the way it sounds.

If I needed to be told how to train at any point, it would have been from my instructor, not a random Internet acquaintance.

What I hear in this thread, and it's not new, we see it from time to time, is the so-called truth someone has discovered and the zeal with which they tell everyone else how we're all doing it wrong. It always begins with the (incorrect) assumption that we all want the same thing out of martial arts training, and it usually focuses on something resembling being the biggest baddest tough guy.

As I said in the beginning, I don't want what others want, that's completely ok, no one can tell me how I should train or what my goals should be, and for what reason should anyone think themselves an authority on what martial arts training is for?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My biggest problem with this, which I agree with more of it that you probably think, is why do you or I or anyone else get to make the rules for everyone else?

Furthermore, the quality or better yet seriousness, of training is on the individual. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I train hard. I laugh at myself quite a bit and have fun at my own expense during and after training. I take what I do seriously, but I don’t take myself seriously. There’s a difference between the two.

I train alongside people who aren’t there for combative purposes. They go through the motions and have fun with it. Certainly not the end of the world. The older I get the less I’m there for combative purposes, but it’s easily still the heart of what I’m doing there. I haven’t been in a fight for a good 15 years now; should I keep training at an all out ready for war intensity or should I lighten up a bit and enjoy myself. And if someone told me I have to leave because I wasn’t 100% preparing for an all out brawl every training session, I’d laugh and ask them what makes them think they get to determine if I’m allowed to train or not.

To each his own. I don’t want someone judging me, therefore I don’t judge anyone else. Without this mentality, the world is a very frustrating place. Trust me, I’ve been there. Minding everyone else’s business and trying to impose your ways on them doesn’t get anyone anywhere. The only thing you can control and make the rules for is your own stuff. Take charge of that and leave everyone else to do the same, and everything will be a lot easier.

I'd like to click "agree" twice on this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think there should be a reasonable link between an activity and some sort of progress in that activity.

Swimming clubs should swim. Cooking schools should cook. Martial artists should learn to fight. If they are not then mabye change the name to better reflect the activity that they are doing.

I am pretty sure even in these martial arts social clubs you describe you can't just come in and do whatever you want.

"Hey guys mabye we should train today"

"Nah don't feel like it I will just sit here and chat instead"

I'm not sure I get the point of the last part - of course, within a school, there's an expectation of how people participate. That's true of pretty much all social interaction.

As for the first part, that's how I feel, but I don't see why my opinion counts more than the folks who disagree on that point. Part of the issue is what we (you and I) decide to include in the term "martial arts" for this discussion. If we say martial arts is the practice of learning to fight, then by definition those things are linked (meaning if they're not learning to fight, they're doing something that doesn't fall within our definition of martial arts). If we say martial arts is any activity roughly related to or derived from combat training, then we end up including things like archery, when trained without any fighting focus (which we could also argue is hunting training, but needn't be that, either). How does it really affect me (or anyone else) if they want to call something "martial arts" that doesn't meet whatever definition I choose to use?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't see why a school should restrict or decide for me what training I do.

A school having expectations is different from me having expectations (from the outside, not as a student) of that school.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If we say martial arts is the practice of learning to fight, then by definition those things are linked (meaning if they're not learning to fight, they're doing something that doesn't fall within our definition of martial arts). If we say martial arts is any activity roughly related to or derived from combat training, then we end up including things like archery, when trained without any fighting focus (which we could also argue is hunting training, but needn't be that, either). How does it really affect me (or anyone else) if they want to call something "martial arts" that doesn't meet whatever definition I choose to use?

Precisely.

First, as you said, who is the arbiter of what I may call what I do?

Second, if someone were to witness me training, they'd probably think they are seeing me practicing traditional IR karate and wonder what I am on about. But that's because they see what I'm doing, not what I'm experiencing, not what I'm there for. Yes, I wear a gi and do kata and will stomp a mud hole in a few folk, but it isn't why I train, it isn't why I'm there, and I know some folks don't get it.

I don't tell anyone else what is and is not martial arts. I'm not qualified. Nor is anyone else.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A school having expectations is different from me having expectations (from the outside, not as a student) of that school.

The dojo where I train teaches Isshinryu karate and Tokushin kobudo.

To the best of my knowledge, each student practices those arts. What they train for, what their goals are, I don't know. It's not my business. I have my reasons, others have theirs. None are invalid because some rando said so.