Fake bjj black belt exposed

[JR 137]

The entire Gracie Barra model is textbook mcdojo. But the quality of instruction is pretty darn high.

Everyone's got their own definition of a McDojo, but most will agree that a place where "...the quality of the instruction is pretty darn high" isn't one of them.

Low quality instruction and/or unrealistic techniques is pretty much universally accepted as the first criteria. Most often accompanied by high fees.

If Royce Gracie or any of the other Gracies charged $500/month to train with them personally and they were turning the student(s) into BJJ machines, I wouldn't consider it McDojo. If they charged $100/month and taught absurdity, I'd consider it classic McDojo.

 

[Buka]

Are there BJJ dojos that don't roll? Or don't roll all that much?

 

[Steve]

Everyone's got their own definition of a McDojo, but most will agree that a place where "...the quality of the instruction is pretty darn high" isn't one of them.

Low quality instruction and/or unrealistic techniques is pretty much universally accepted as the first criteria. Most often accompanied by high fees.

If Royce Gracie or any of the other Gracies charged $500/month to train with them personally and they were turning the student(s) into BJJ machines, I wouldn't consider it McDojo. If they charged $100/month and taught absurdity, I'd consider it classic McDojo.

A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula. Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches. They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system,

Is it worth it? Maybe. Not saying it isn't. Is it McDojo? I think it certainly is.

So, when you say "most", I think you mean "some" think quality of instruction must be low for something to be a McDojo.

I think it would be helpful for you to read this thread so that you can get a better sense of how diverse the definitions of McDojo are around here.

What Is A McDojo?

 

[Charlemagne]

The entire Gracie Barra model is textbook mcdojo. But the quality of instruction is pretty darn high.

Having a successful business model with numerous locations does not make Gracie Barra a McDojo. The "Mc", in McDojo implies poor quality ala McDonald's, not just lots of locations. "Textbook McDojo" to use your term, implies crap such as child black belts and fast promotion with no standards as long as your payment comes in on time.

 

[Charlemagne]

A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula. Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches. They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system.

Ruth's Chris standardizes everything they do as well. That doesn't make it the same thing as going to McDonalds.

Sure, the inside of every Hyundai dealership in the USA looks pretty much the same. But then, so does the inside of every Porsche dealership.

Is it McDojo? I think it certainly is.

So, when you say "most", I think you mean "some" think quality of instruction must be low for something to be a McDojo.

It's a pejorative term used to imply that training at a particular martial arts studio is akin to eating at fast food in that it is fast (obviously), cheaply made by people with almost no training, and not good for you.

 

[Steve]

I don't happen to like the Gracie Barra business model. its the Starbucks of Bjj.

Mcdojo can imply poor instruction, but I think I've been clear that isn't what I mean. It's more about the order of priorities. In a McDojo, quality might be there, but money is higher on the list. I think GB is, first and foremost, about making dough by selling a franchise model.

 

[Hanzou]

Who is complaining? I am guessing the comment section on the video because nobody here is.

Comment section.

 

[Buka]

A McDojo is a cookie cutter, money making formula. Gracie Barra charges pretty high fees, requires you buy their Bjj kimonos, their patches. They charge very high affiliation fees to be a certified instructor, and they insist that their instruction is done according to their system,

Is it worth it? Maybe. Not saying it isn't. Is it McDojo? I think it certainly is.

So, when you say "most", I think you mean "some" think quality of instruction must be low for something to be a McDojo.

I think it would be helpful for you to read this thread so that you can get a better sense of how diverse the definitions of McDojo are around here.

What Is A McDojo?

I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.

I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how we defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things.

They had absolutely no idea how to fight, or teach, anything what-so-ever to do with actual fighting, or, not even sparring. Nothing, zip, nadda.

But.... and this is a pretty God Damn big and scary "but", - all the people who trained there were convinced they knew how to fight and honestly believed they would more than likely actually kill an attacker if it ever came down to it.

These places were all over the place in New England years ago. It's still what I think of as a McD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.

I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how we defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things.

They had absolutely no idea how to fight, or teach, anything what-so-ever to do with actual fighting, or, not even sparring. Nothing, zip, nadda.

But.... and this is a pretty God Damn big and scary "but", - all the people who trained there were convinced they knew how to fight and honestly believed they would more than likely actually kill an attacker if it ever came down to it.

These places were all over the place in New England years ago. It's still what I think of as a McD.

That matches up with what I'd normally refer to as a McDojo. I don't even have a problem with the lack of fighting ability, because not everyone enters MA to learn to fight. It's the false perception that's the issue to me.

 

[Charlemagne]

I never saw that particular thread. Read it all, though. I thought the first several pages were really good.

I speak from the past. I rally don't know anything about modern Mcdojos. I realize the money factor, but that's never how we defined them. To us it was about two really big things, defining things.

They had absolutely no idea how to fight, or teach, anything what-so-ever to do with actual fighting, or, not even sparring. Nothing, zip, nadda.

But.... and this is a pretty God Damn big and scary "but", - all the people who trained there were convinced they knew how to fight and honestly believed they would more than likely actually kill an attacker if it ever came down to it.

These places were all over the place in New England years ago. It's still what I think of as a McD.

Exactly. It's about mass produced, low quality crap, put together by people with lousy training and sold to unsuspecting suckers as the real deal. It's a place where people are pushed through to become blackbelts in short order without ever validating their skills as long as their check clears every month and they have some sort of reasonable class attendance.

 

[Charlemagne]

I don't happen to like the Gracie Barra business model. its the Starbucks of Bjj.

Mcdojo can imply poor instruction, but I think I've been clear that isn't what I mean. It's more about the order of priorities. In a McDojo, quality might be there, but money is higher on the list. I think GB is, first and foremost, about making dough by selling a franchise model.

Perhaps. It's also about giving practitioners a chance to actually make a living at teaching martial arts, which is not easy to do. Where I live at least, they are no more expensive than anyone else when it comes to training. In addition, the set curriculum is not exactly uncommon. Gracie Humaita, Relson Gracie Affiliates, Grace Academy Affiliates, Pedro Sauer Jiu-Jitsu Association, etc. all have a pretty set curriculum as well, and no one seems to have any problem with that.

 

[msmitht]

So a successful school that charges a rate that allows the instructors to have only one job whole providing top quality instruction is a McDojo? I teach at a GB school and our standards are pretty high. Average BB trains 9-10 years. We have a large school with around 230 students. Have and continue to produce winners in IBJJF, NAGA and MMA at all levels of competition. Talk smack if you want but we are doing great. Jealousy is the most sincere form of flattery.
Not denying that there have been a few Speed bumps. Some unscrupulous people out for a quick buck and guess what happened to them? Gone.

 

[Steve]

Okay. Sounds like I'm the outlier here. I'll just take a final stab at explaining. First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools. I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.

There are pros and cons to chains. but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality. Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model. Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains. The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example. That's not just my opinion.

So, affiliations like GB, and others, are making a lot of money. The affiliation plan is about making money. Charlemagne affirms that this is about money. Quality is an aside. And in fact, the affiliation protects the good instructors by associating them through the brand to elite instructors. Starbucks makes an okay shot of espresso, but the brand values consistency over quality. Quality has to be good, but it doesn't need to be great. It can be, but doesn't need to be.

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds. I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other. Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem. So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant. It's a chain, and that's kind of meh. Doesn't mean the food is bad. Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new. I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay. Sounds like I'm the outlier here. I'll just take a final stab at explaining. First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools. I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.

There are pros and cons to chains. but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality. Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model. Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains. The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example. That's not just my opinion.

So, affiliations like GB, and others, are making a lot of money. The affiliation plan is about making money. Charlemagne affirms that this is about money. Quality is an aside. And in fact, the affiliation protects the good instructors by associating them through the brand to elite instructors. Starbucks makes an okay shot of espresso, but the brand values consistency over quality. Quality has to be good, but it doesn't need to be great. It can be, but doesn't need to be.

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds. I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other. Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem. So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant. It's a chain, and that's kind of meh. Doesn't mean the food is bad. Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new. I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.

Actually, quality control is a large part of most chain/franchise plans. It doesn't ensure the highest quality, but ensures a consistent level of quality. No, the best restaurants won't be chains, but very few of the awful ones will be, either. And those awful ones within a chain usually change management or close. I think the same happens with good chain dojos, too. Are there bad ones, even bad chains? Sure, but most groups help ensure some quality level.

I do see where you're coming from - just pointing out how I view it. I've always considered "McDojo" to refer to a school that seems to not care about quality, whether part of a chain/franchise/association or not.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I saw this video online of some guys exposing what they think is a fake McDojo black belt in bjj. I mean I know basically nothing so I can't comment but what do the bjj guys here think of it. I do find it interesting because I have seen a few times people say it's impossible to have a McDojo for bjj but well it seems there can be from this.

As others have noted, this wasn't about the school being a "McDojo", it was about the instructor being a fraud in his claimed BJJ credentials. It's hard to get away with being a fake BJJ black belt for very long precisely because of this sort of occurrence. The BJJ community is pretty diligent about weeding out fakes.

 

[msmitht]

Okay. Sounds like I'm the outlier here. I'll just take a final stab at explaining. First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools. I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.

There are pros and cons to chains. but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality. Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model. Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains. The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example. That's not just my opinion.

So, affiliations like GB, and others, are making a lot of money. The affiliation plan is about making money. Charlemagne affirms that this is about money. Quality is an aside. And in fact, the affiliation protects the good instructors by associating them through the brand to elite instructors. Starbucks makes an okay shot of espresso, but the brand values consistency over quality. Quality has to be good, but it doesn't need to be great. It can be, but doesn't need to be.

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds. I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other. Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem. So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant. It's a chain, and that's kind of meh. Doesn't mean the food is bad. Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new. I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.

First rule is quality instruction. If that is not there the school will fail no matter the business model

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As others have noted, this wasn't about the school being a "McDojo", it was about the instructor being a fraud in his claimed BJJ credentials. It's hard to get away with being a fake BJJ black belt for very long precisely because of this sort of occurrence. The BJJ community is pretty diligent about weeding out fakes.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when someone starts a new branch of BJJ and changes the belt standards. Even if all they did was adopt reasonable grading standards similar to some other arts, they'd be out of line with most of BJJ. It seems inevitable, and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened yet, perhaps from someone who carries rank in another art and just wants to simplify the ranking to make them similar.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay. Sounds like I'm the outlier here. I'll just take a final stab at explaining. First, to be clear, I am not suggesting Gb schools are not good schools. I'm actually suggesting "mc" anything is related to a business model... The one that McDonald's pioneered.

There are pros and cons to chains. but the pros are all linked to financial viability, not quality. Quality is kind of irrelevant to the business model. Without exception, the best restaurants I've ever been to are not chains. The best steak in Seattle is at the metropolitan grill, not Ruth's Chris, for example. That's not just my opinion.

So, affiliations like GB, and others, are making a lot of money. The affiliation plan is about making money. Charlemagne affirms that this is about money. Quality is an aside. And in fact, the affiliation protects the good instructors by associating them through the brand to elite instructors. Starbucks makes an okay shot of espresso, but the brand values consistency over quality. Quality has to be good, but it doesn't need to be great. It can be, but doesn't need to be.

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds. I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other. Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem. So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant. It's a chain, and that's kind of meh. Doesn't mean the food is bad. Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new. I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.

I don't often use the term McDojo, but I generally understand the meaning to include low-quality instruction and low standards for promotions as well as a devotion to maximizing revenue.

The definition that you suggest would be reasonable and less subjective, but I don't think that's how most people use the word.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First rule is quality instruction. If that is not there the school will fail no matter the business model

Unfortunately, that's not really true. I've seen some schools flourish with really bad technique. There's one near me that I'd call a McDojo, and which has been around for at least 15 years.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when someone starts a new branch of BJJ and changes the belt standards. Even if all they did was adopt reasonable grading standards similar to some other arts, they'd be out of line with most of BJJ. It seems inevitable, and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened yet, perhaps from someone who carries rank in another art and just wants to simplify the ranking to make them similar.

It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.