Facts, Fiction, Lies and actual accounts

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609] My point from my original post would be along the lines of 'was' (Karate/other) and not a 2000 yr old indigenous KMA. What it is today is a distinct art. From my personal, and professional perspective (read SD), it was far more effective then than it is now. Modern TKD, from a SD perspective is watered down and generally ineffective. I repeat, from a SD perspective. Sport on the other hand is a different animal and is not within the scope of my statement.

The problem here is that you are making a distinction between parts of the same art. If you're comparing the arts, you cannot simply lop off a major portion of the art in order to make your point.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609] I will strongly disagree, with respect Daniel, about your comment on forms. Again, in my opinion (personal and professional) they are reworked karate forms. I do NOT feel those that put them together, generally speaking, knew exactly the information they could/should contain or the true value of the form. Or, at least felt that that knowledge wasn't needed for the agenda they wished to pursue.

This is entirely your opinion. I am familiar enough with Shotokan (though it has been a very long time since I have practiced it) to say that you are incorrect. You might have been able to make that case for Palgwe pumse, but those were only practiced for a brief period of time. Perhaps you can make that case for Chang Hon tul; I'm not saying that you can, but I am not familiar enough with them to say one way or the other.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]How many 'modern' practitioners (of any art that uses forms) sees those forms as a waste of time? A class-filler? Something that really doesn't apply to actual training? I'd say the majority.

Couldn't tell you; that has not been my experience at the specific schools where I have trained.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]And that is a shame, because proper knowledge of forms is the depth of the art itself.

On that we can agree!

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]Does TKD (and Karate) have joint locks, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendon etc? It does with a proper knowledge of the forms in my opinion.

Probably; I'm not familiar with enough of the hundreds of karate ryu to speak to 'karate' as a whole.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]It does with a proper knowledge of the forms in my opinion. And it is something that has been lost for the most part in most schools.

Again, I couldn't speak to that, as my personal experience has been otherwise.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]True, if you only want sport it isn't needed or useful, but it is very relevant to those in the arts for SD.

In my opinion, you're either learning the art or you're not. Some people only want sport, usually because they are younger and still in a competitive mindset. People who stay with the art longer generally want a more balanced curriculum.

Honestly, I don't see sport as the issue. I see the focus on belts as being the main issue; people learning a form just to get a belt, then forgetting about it until they have to test for black belt, then reviewing it enough to pass a belt test, get their black belt, and then quit. Unfortunately, instructors are complicit in this (and that I have seen first hand) in order to keep their school running.

Kong Soo Do[/B];1487609]I disagree, with respect. I feel that forms training is a prime example of that lack of experience/deeper knowledge of the art. Had the majority possessed this insight, TKD 'might' look different today. Be that good or bad is to the opinion of the beholder.

How familiar are you with Taegeuk pumse?

Just to bring this discussion back on topic, do you have a response to this? I figure that this is on topic.

For those who want to take jabs at one another, take it to PM.

 

[Gorilla]

In my post #4 I stated what I have been told. Although very simplistic. The research that I have done has shown this to be on target. Thoughts?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my post #4 I stated what I have been told. Although very simplistic. The research that I have done has shown this to be on target. Thoughts?

Quoted below for convenience.

This was what we were told by our original GM. That Korea has a long history in the Martial Arts. That was supresssed by the Japanese during the occupation during WW2. That the originator of our Kwan (Song Moo Kwan) got his BB in Japan while in college from a famous Shotokan Master Funakoshi. After the WW2 he started his school (Kwan). Several other who got BB is Japan also did the same thing. These were the original Kwans. The Kwan's came together in the 50's and 60's and formed TKD. TKD is influenced by Karate and the long history of Martial Arts in Korea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my post #4 I stated what I have been told. Although very simplistic. The research that I have done has shown this to be on target. Thoughts?

Only two Ro Byung Jick (SMK) and Chun Sang Sup (YMK/JDK) of the original five had Shotokan black belts to my knowledge.

Hwang Kee (MDK) claimed to have learned shotokan it from a book, which precludes him holding any actual rank, and to have learned takkyeon (I think) through watching demonstrations. Again, this precludes him from holding any title.

Lee Won Kyuk (CDK) studied Taekkyeon, Kung fu, and Okinawan karate; no clue as to what rank, if any, he attained.

Yoon Byung In (CMK) had a Chuan fa background and worked out at a karate cluib in Japan; no grade to my knowledge, and he called his art kwon beop, which from what I understand, was CMA based, not karate based.

My research is hardly scholarly and consists of a lot of internet searching and correspondence with people on BBS like MT. Take it for what its worth.

 

[sopraisso]

Again I show up late, but I always can learn from what has been said.

[...] this is a interesting topic since we are Tkd and Shotokan . Allot of similar techs in both...we love both...

My first serious contact with martial arts was with karate (shotokan). Then I moved to taekwondo by force of circumstances. I was shocked with the similarity between both arts. Today I love both and, while I accept taekwondo as my adopted style (it was hard in the beginning), I still plan to go back to karate, to learn more from where it largely came from, as I believe. It's nice to see people here have knowledge of both and are able to conciliate them, at least generally.

I believe it's important to notice discussions like this are meant to clarify -- not to denigrate any of the martial arts. As I started to know better the links between karate and taekwondo, I felt more peaceful about what I was practicing then. I believe many problems being faced today by one are happening to the other, too, and such issues are not related with the nature of those arts, but with the way they are sometimes teached and/or practiced.

And there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.

Speaking generally however, there are times when personal experience, no matter how lengthy, does not equip us with knowledge of specific areas that may fall either outside of our experience or in which our lengthy experience only touches on.

And what we've heard is never a good basis for definitive statements unless the only thing one is definitive about is that they have heard it. Particularly when making statements of a technical nature.

This is a general lesson of great value. Sometimes our experience, and many times the strong impressions left by our experience, make us have a particular and mistaken view of the general picture, and it's not always easy to perceive that the outside can be very different of what we've seen.

 

[dancingalone]

Only two Ro Byung Jick (SMK) and Chun Sang Sup (YMK/JDK) of the original five had Shotokan black belts to my knowledge. Hwang Kee (MDK) claimed to have learned shotokan it from a book, which precludes him holding any actual rank, and to have learned takkyeon (I think) through watching demonstrations. Again, this precludes him from holding any title.Lee Won Kyuk (CDK) studied Taekkyeon, Kung fu, and Okinawan karate; no clue as to what rank, if any, he attained.

HWANG Kee was awarded a green belt by LEE Won Kuk in what I presume was CDK karate. I am sure his abilities well exceeded that rank however.

Yoon Byung In (CMK) had a Chuan fa background and worked out at a karate cluib in Japan; no grade to my knowledge, and he called his art kwon beop, which from what I understand, was CMA based, not karate based. My research is hardly scholarly and consists of a lot of internet searching and correspondence with people on BBS like MT. Take it for what its worth.

GM Yoon was one of the two Koreans acknowledged by TOYAMA Kanken, founder of the Shudokan, as shihan in his school. Whatever dan rank that corresponds to (if at all) at the time, it's still a master level rank in karate.

 

[dancingalone]

Can't edit my post above, but there is also anecdotal history that General Choi had a dan in Shotokan (I've seen accounts that state nidan). No documentation that I know of has survived to verify this account though, but then similar circumstances exist for some of the other senior TKD people.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Ki Whang KIM being the other.

 

[dancingalone]

Ki Whang KIM being the other.

I know GM Kim also trained at the Shudokan. I thought the second Korean shihan was YON Kwai Byung though. I can never remember this gentleman's name, so excuse me for any misspelling here.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Thanks for that, you are absolutely correct, YON Kwai Byung was also a BB holder at the Shudokan. I do not remember right off hand what ranks the three gentlemen earned, but I'm fairly certain all three of them were black belts through the Shudokan.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Not that Wikipedia is an incredibly reliable source, but it supports your statement of both YOON Byung In and YON Kwai Byeong being listed as Shihan through the Shudokan, and KIM Ki Whang being listed as a 3rd Dan (although I've seen other sources list his rank as 4th Dan).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

GM Yoon was one of the two Koreans acknowledged by TOYAMA Kanken, founder of the Shudokan, as shihan in his school. Whatever dan rank that corresponds to (if at all) at the time, it's still a master level rank in karate.

While shihan doesn't represent a specific rank, I think there is a minimum rank of like fourth to sixth dan, depending on the art. I know that shihan in Korean is sabeom, which is generally at least fourth dan.

Can't edit my post above, but there is also anecdotal history that General Choi had a dan in Shotokan (I've seen accounts that state nidan). No documentation that I know of has survived to verify this account though, but then similar circumstances exist for some of the other senior TKD people.

I had thought that he claimed to have a nidan. I could be mistaken, but either way, I have heard this as well.

 

[andyjeffries]

Lee Won Kyuk (CDK) studied Taekkyeon, Kung fu, and Okinawan karate; no clue as to what rank, if any, he attained.

Take it for what its worth.

Likewise, but:

http://www.arenakarate.co.uk/about/shuri_te

Lee started his martial arts training during his college years at the Central University law school in Japan. There he studied, what is now known as Shoto-kan Karate-do, under Gichin Funakoshi. "As a young man, I visited martial arts centers including the birthplace of Karate in Okinawa, Kung Fu centers in Henan and Shanghai China, and other places. I studied Karate with Sensei Hunagoshi, founder of Goju-ryu Karate and a Japanese national hero."(Lee)

A while after achieving his black belt under Grandmaster Funakoshi, Lee returned to his home of Korea so that he could show his people the beauty of the martial arts. "I practiced Tang Soo Do and came to realize this type of skill was very important to have. I became aware that our Korean national history and legacy of martial arts were being kept from us. I felt very bad about this." (Lee)​

 

[dancingalone]

Likewise, but:http://www.arenakarate.co.uk/about/shuri_te

I studied Karate with Sensei Hunagoshi, founder of Goju-ryu Karate and a Japanese national hero."(Lee)​

That's a rather bizarre quotation by the way. (I know you didn't write it, Andy.) Who is Hunagoshi? The founder of Okinawan Goju-ryu karate was MIYAGI Chojun. YAMAGUICHI Gogen later popularized Goju-ryu in Japan.

 

[andyjeffries]

That's a rather bizarre quotation by the way. (I know you didn't write it, Andy.) Who is Hunagoshi? The founder of Okinawan Goju-ryu karate was MIYAGI Chojun. YAMAGUICHI Gogen later popularized Goju-ryu in Japan.

The only think I can think of is that he meant Funakoshi? g/k is fairly similar in Korean and there is no "F" in Korean, so maybe he pronounced it Hunagoshi as that was as close as he could get with his Korean accent. The quote is attributed to him, so maybe it came from a recorded interview and was just written as said.

I don't know of the Goju-ryu/Shotokan confusion though.

As you say, it's not my quote but those are my guesses...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

GM Yoon was one of the two Koreans acknowledged by TOYAMA Kanken, founder of the Shudokan, as shihan in his school. Whatever dan rank that corresponds to (if at all) at the time, it's still a master level rank in karate.

I've seen him listed as either 4th Dan or 7th Dan depending on the source. He seemed to be very well respected in both Japan and Korea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kongsoodo,

Before it gets buried again, I asked some questions to you and gave you some responses regarding your statements on Kukkiwon pumse. I'm not sure if you've seen them; the original was on page two and I reposted it on page three. I don't know if you've just missed them, but I am interested in your response.

Thank you,

 

[Gorilla]

Only two Ro Byung Jick (SMK) and Chun Sang Sup (YMK/JDK) of the original five had Shotokan black belts.


Ro Byung Jick is the founder of our Kwan. That would appear to be correct.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Only two Ro Byung Jick (SMK) and Chun Sang Sup (YMK/JDK) of the original five had Shotokan black belts to my knowledge.

>snip<

Lee Won Kyuk (CDK) studied Taekkyeon, Kung fu, and Okinawan karate; no clue as to what rank, if any, he attained.

Lee Won Kuk studied at the Shotokan and received a black belt (3rd dan I have heard, but I've never gotten a concrete answer).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

I would like to restate what we have said here. Please add I did not get everything!

Major influence of TKD is Karate. Shotokan is probably the major one but other styles came into play.
That founders of the major kwans trained in Karate rising to different ranks. We believe based on Internet research that at least 2 achieved Dan rank under Funakoshi.

That TKD was established post WW2. I think that it is fair to say that it has also been influenced by Korean martial arts culture which predates the Japanese occupation. To what extent is debatable but to say that it had no influence would be unfair.

Can we all agree that this is some what accurate?