Eye gouging thread

[MJS]

I guess this is where the TMA and SD people are heading, now that all the young blood are switching or flocking to MMA right? Tactical biting 101 and making it sound like every situation will be a life or death one.

LMAO! Sorry, but they're only 'flocking' because its the current flavor of the time, just like people flocked to Ninjutsu in the 80's. However, in my area, I'd say its a pretty good mix all around. Sure, you have people that prefer the MMA schools, but you also have those that prefer a different route.

 

[Mz1]

Now we've gotten somewhere. If you concede that it works, then you have to recognize that some sort of training to utilize it is required to properly utilize it for maximum efficacy.

If I already throw over 30 jabs per round at fully resisting opponents during hard sparring for KO's, then I'm pretty sure that I can poke someone in the eye really well already. Probably a lot more powerful, more precise, faster, etc. than the average SD/TMA guy who doesn't spar for KO's regularly. I'm certainly not going to pay money to have someone teach me how to eye poke, and especially not for biting, eye gouging, nut strike, etc.

I'm familiar enough with the drill to know that what it's really about is being able to fight one's way out of a bad situation, after all, where you've become limited to

You questioned whether or not I would be able to throw knees, elbows and even punch in confined spaces such as a phone booth. The answer is yes as this is standard close quarters fighting in MMA/MT. Getting backed up into the corner, against the cage, back on the ground, etc. is about the same.

It's likely, in such contests, that your opponent has not-you're trapped in a corner, and need to get out.

Getting backed up into the corner, against the cage, back on the ground, etc. is about the same. Jab out, wall walk, clinch & drive, etc. We already train and apply this regularly in hard sparring and real fights.

Needless to say, though, I disagree with almost all of the rest of your post, which was absurdly misinformed, really-training is needed for firearms like a shotgun to be used defensively, as well as knives, and street fights offer different stresses than contests.

I think I know a thing or two about guns, I love guns. I never said anything about not needing to train in order to become proficient with guns and knives. While you made some off the wall analogy about deploying nuclear warheads and such, that has nothing with being similar to H2H, actual sparring. And you seem to have this mentality that every situation is going to be life or death, which is what's really absurd. I refuted your knife analogies with specific arguments and your rebuttal is that you disagree?

I just said that pulling the trigger of a shotgun causes much more damage and requires much less training than what it takes to beat someone H2H. Someone who just bought their first firearm in form of a shotgun, and w/o any training whatsoever can still pose a deadly threat to the most trained and experienced soldier, cop or whatever. But someone who trains MA yet scared to death of sparring for KO's regularly, is not going to have much of a chance against an experienced MMA fighter.

 

[Mz1]

Well, to be honest, given some of the schools out there, my money would be on the boxer as well. However, I wouldn't always put all my money on a boxer, as there're alot of quality schools out there, that do make a more well rounded fighter, than a boxer.

I certainly agree. We fight every year in WKA events that are run by Karate schools (who fights MMA, etc.). There certainly are Karate schools, Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. that fights. Just a lot of them don't. The norm is, a lot of people are scared to get hit in the face hard as part of regular training. So they quit. We have this problem too. So to pay the rent, gyms have to go the McDojo route sometimes. Which is why MMA gyms don't just teach MMA. We have the BJJ side where no one gets punched in the face. There's a very successful MMA school around here that recently brought in a children's Karate program because parent's wants to see their kids looking like they belong to some order/team with their gi's and colored belt.

I have no problem with this. I only have problems when people who never really fought before with their eye poking, tries to tell me that they're way more deadly & realistic than an experienced Boxer or MMA fighter that have indeed, put their elbows & knees into people's faces (and vice versa) and that somehow, fighting in the ring/cage is less realistic than their play-fighting.

 

[Mz1]

LMAO! Sorry, but they're only 'flocking' because its the current flavor of the time, just like people flocked to Ninjutsu in the 80's. However, in my area, I'd say its a pretty good mix all around. Sure, you have people that prefer the MMA schools, but you also have those that prefer a different route.

It's more than the current flavor though because the Gracies actively sought out and challenged other styles to fight....no rules, no time limit. All the eye poking, biting, nut grabbing, anti-rape tactics, ninja-strikes, etc...allowed. They ruffled lots of feathers by mopping the floor with these TMA stylists that stepped up. Then the UFC made it worse for TMA as it went global, exposing many of the myths, which eventually led to MMA.

In the 70's it was Kung-Fu, especially due to Bruce Lee. In the 80's, maybe TKD and Karate. But since UFC 1 in 1993, MMA has only gotten bigger every year. It's been nearly 20 years now, and it's claimed as being the fastest growing sport for many years straight now.

 

[MJS]

I certainly agree. We fight every year in WKA events that are run by Karate schools (who fights MMA, etc.). There certainly are Karate schools, Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. that fights. Just a lot of them don't. The norm is, a lot of people are scared to get hit in the face hard as part of regular training. So they quit. We have this problem too. So to pay the rent, gyms have to go the McDojo route sometimes. Which is why MMA gyms don't just teach MMA. We have the BJJ side where no one gets punched in the face. There's a very successful MMA school around here that recently brought in a children's Karate program because parent's wants to see their kids looking like they belong to some order/team with their gi's and colored belt.

I have no problem with this. I only have problems when people who never really fought before with their eye poking, tries to tell me that they're way more deadly & realistic than an experienced Boxer or MMA fighter that have indeed, put their elbows & knees into people's faces (and vice versa) and that somehow, fighting in the ring/cage is less realistic than their play-fighting.

Agreed!! Sad to say, ALOT of schools around my area, tend to be overly cautious on the contact. IMHO, that is what the arts were designed for, way back when....for fighting, and IMO, if you're going to fight, then you need to have hard contact. I'd be willing to bet that many people would cringe at my old Kenpo schools, if they saw how hard we fight in Kyokushin.

 

[MJS]

It's more than the current flavor though because the Gracies actively sought out and challenged other styles to fight....no rules, no time limit. All the eye poking, biting, nut grabbing, anti-rape tactics, ninja-strikes, etc...allowed. They ruffled lots of feathers by mopping the floor with these TMA stylists that stepped up. Then the UFC made it worse for TMA as it went global, exposing many of the myths, which eventually led to MMA.

In the 70's it was Kung-Fu, especially due to Bruce Lee. In the 80's, maybe TKD and Karate. But since UFC 1 in 1993, MMA has only gotten bigger every year. It's been nearly 20 years now, and it's claimed as being the fastest growing sport for many years straight now.

Well, I'll give you that. There're quite a few challenge matches on YT. The quality of the challenger...well, I can't comment on that, because I dont know who they are, but looking at some of them, well, I was less than impressed.

I guess my point was simply that as the years went on, people were attracted to various things. It was like a kid with a new toy. They'd get something new, play with it, and when the next new toy came out....

Only difference here, is that people really enjoy MMA and IMO, there really hasn't been anything new, per se, to draw them away. Just to be clear...I'm not anti MMA. I have alot of friends who do MMA/BJJ. Its just not something that I want to devote time to at the moment.

 

[Tez3]

LOL, now you're just trying extra hard now. You even admit in writing that I meant "neither the police nor the cops". But my argument that they don't "use live ammo to shoot each other" during training has no other meaning. What next? I have to spellcheck too counselor?

Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1

Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here. Trolling methinks.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I disagree. Most normal people are not mentally prepared for seeing the blood and goo that can be the result of an eye gouge. I would recommend against believing it will save you. I don't have the skill set, but a black belt in our system instantly challenges those who proclaim their eye gouging will save them from being submitted to a BJJ match, and they get to gouge all they want. He always wins, because he knows eye gouging is a fantasy. In our system, we are taught to gouge or flick the eyes right off the bat, as a timing mechanism, but never as a get out fight free card.

I'm confused with what you are disagreeing with me about. I do not believe eye gouging will end a fight unless the attacker was not very committed to harming you (in which case eye gouging may be excessive force).

One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.

What you said, using it as a timing mechanism is part of the "when you should do it and why". So I actually agree with what you have said and always have. Attacking the weak spots like the eyes and the groin are best trained as set ups for other techniques as everyone will instinctively protect all their balls, whether they are in their heads or dangling between their legs.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm confused with what you are disagreeing with me about. I do not believe eye gouging will end a fight unless the attacker was not very committed to harming you (in which case eye gouging may be excessive force).

One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.

What you said, using it as a timing mechanism is part of the "when you should do it and why". So I actually agree with what you have said and always have. Attacking the weak spots like the eyes and the groin are best trained as set ups for other techniques as everyone will instinctively protect all their balls, whether they are in their heads or dangling between their legs.

If memory serves, you said they didn't need to be taught how, but when and why. I think the how is important. However, we agree for the most part.

 

[Steve]

Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here.

Let's chill out on the back and forth, guys. We're a friendly website and the mods have made it clear that this thread is on thin ice. Besides, Tez, after a sentence like the one above, you might avoid criticizing someone's grammar. (joking, joking!)

 

[Cyriacus]

One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.

Because alas, rage removes inhibitions, and relying on pain to move someone around stops working so good

 

[Dirty Dog]

One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.

Which just goes to show that nothing is 100%. I think most of us (but not 100% of us...) already knew that.

 

[Mz1]

Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here. Trolling methinks.

You're the one who responded to my post that was directed towards elder999. I wasn't even talking to you. You made a mistake. I called you on it. Then you try to cover it up by nitpicking grammar.

 

[FluidSound]

Personally, I think eye gouging is an effective tactic if done properly and an opportunity arises for it. Your pupils are very, very sensitive. They are the reason you see and just touching it can hurt, let alone gouging. Getting rid of the idea of honor and cheap moves, eye gouging in a real fight should be used if opportune.

 

[Tez3]

Let's chill out on the back and forth, guys. We're a friendly website and the mods have made it clear that this thread is on thin ice. Besides, Tez, after a sentence like the one above, you might avoid criticizing someone's grammar. (joking, joking!)

Nought wrong with my English. Just tired of the game playing, as you said this thread is on thin ice so calling me a bloke and trying to bait me isn't on. I'm not going to creat work for mods by reporting, and I wasn't even being nasty to him. Nasty would be calling him a pillock which I'm not doing however much the temptation so I'm playing nice. He's on ignore now.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Personally, I think eye gouging is an effective tactic if done properly and an opportunity arises for it. Your pupils are very, very sensitive. They are the reason you see and just touching it can hurt, let alone gouging. Getting rid of the idea of honor and cheap moves, eye gouging in a real fight should be used if opportune.

Just to clarify your anatomy...
The pupil is not sensitive at all, since it's a HOLE. It's the solid parts of the eye (primarily the cornea and sclera) that are sensitive. The pupil is just a hole in the middle of the iris, which is behind the cornea. When you poke someone in the eye (the whole "gouge out an eye" thing is ridiculous) you're really only going to make contact with the sclera and/or the cornea.

 

[FluidSound]

I see. Excuse me for being mistaken. Anyhow, the point is, when you touch the cornea (especially at the center of the eye) it does hurt. That's just from touching it. If anyone's ever been poked in the eye, it's very, very unpleasant. Generally speaking, after poking someone in the eye, they usually tend to hold onto the eye and leave themselves off guard. At least, from my experience that's what happens. Still, I find that if it works, it works.

 

[Cyriacus]

I see. Excuse me for being mistaken. Anyhow, the point is, when you touch the cornea (especially at the center of the eye) it does hurt. That's just from touching it. If anyone's ever been poked in the eye, it's very, very unpleasant. Generally speaking, after poking someone in the eye, they usually tend to hold onto the eye and leave themselves off guard. At least, from my experience that's what happens. Still, I find that if it works, it works.

Or you get very angry because someone just tried to harm your only means of vision.

 

[Tez3]

I think we're going to need pictures. Preferably embarassing ones...

there you go! Obviously I'm the female lol This is somewhat embassing as the guest instructor Marcus Da Silva is now in prison after being convicted of kidnap and assault of a female student! Here he was doing a BJJ seminar.

 

[Towel Snapper]

As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage. I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net. These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball. I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force.

Kinda like shooting an eyeball with a high velocity shot gun, as apposed to aiming 1 large caliber bullet at the eye.

Nice.