A poll

[Bruno@MT]

Now as for TKD being to lethal. No its no different than any other martial art, however when You learn traditional TKD it is very focused on its how shall we say? Military history. The moves taught are more for a soldier in combat than a civilian defending their person. Striking the throat, eyes, ribs, knees, groin, back and sides of neck. This is fine when you have a psychopath out to take your life, but not so good for drunks. Where does that leave you when thats what your taught?

It's is really no different for other traditional arts, since most traditional arts have their roots on the battlefield.

Now as for my account three men simply decided they wanted to fight me. They threatened me, and took aggressive postures while surrounding me, and continuing to threaten me.

Now they saw me come out of my apartment door so they knew where I lived.
What would running gain me? Being that I never trained to fight multiple enemies how do I make it out of this? I don't know if they know Jujitsu, or maybe did some boxing. I don't know if they have weapons, all I know is I have never met them before, and they are threatening me. Sometimes running will not save you as You can not out run a bullet, or a thrown knife for that matter.

You can't outrun a bullet, that is correct. But as you've said yourself, they were drunk. Evading a drunk in a fight does not take a whole lot of skill.
You mention that they saw you coming out of the house and that you therefore couldn't run.

you were a target of opportunity. Get out and they'll look for something else or just simply go home or to the next bar. Noone was forcing you to make a grand last stand at the OK corral.

If one person can hurt you what can three do? Its not that hard to break floating ribs. How do you survive this encounter when forced to fight? I am simply looking for the input of those more experienced than I to create a method of minimized risk to your person, while not over doing it to someone else, and still surviving.

Please forget this silly notion that you can engage 3 persons and only slightly hurt them so that you can walk away and they are unharmed. You can't. Life is not like a Jet Li movie. And neither is it about knowing a special move or tactic that lets you deal with them without hurting them.

If 3 people attack you, you run.
If you can't run, you have to deal with them and immobilize each of them when (or before) they attack you and then run. If they are drunk, then immobilizing them might be as easy as kicking their legs from under them. Still, they'll possibily slam their heads on the ground so they will get hurt then. And if you don't want them standing up again, your kicks have to be hard enough to keep them down.

If multiple people attack you, you don't try to find that absolute minimum you can do and still walk away. Because you are outnumbered and any mistake will see you dead or crippled. If multiple people attack you AND you cannot run, then you try to survive. Everything else is a distraction.


For quick reference (answers.com) has many definitions of the word fight here are a few.

To set (a boxer, for example) in combat with another.

A confrontation between opposing groups in which each attempts to harm or gain power over the other, as with bodily force or weapons.

Combat

To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.


Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See synonyms at conflict.

This is obviously undesirable, but sometimes it happens.

So to get to my point I was looking for constructive input on the matter about how we should prepare for these situations as well as teach about them. Not telling me what I should and should not know from someone who did not fully understand the post. It is not up to you what I should and should not know it is up to my instructor, and the world mooye federation. If you have any constructive advice it is welcome such as techniques you believe that would be extra effective in this type of situation.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kyosanim]

It's is really no different for other traditional arts, since most traditional arts have their roots on the battlefield.



You can't outrun a bullet, that is correct. But as you've said yourself, they were drunk. Evading a drunk in a fight does not take a whole lot of skill.
You mention that they saw you coming out of the house and that you therefore couldn't run.

you were a target of opportunity. Get out and they'll look for something else or just simply go home or to the next bar. Noone was forcing you to make a grand last stand at the OK corral.




Please forget this silly notion that you can engage 3 persons and only slightly hurt them so that you can walk away and they are unharmed. You can't. Life is not like a Jet Li movie. And neither is it about knowing a special move or tactic that lets you deal with them without hurting them.

If 3 people attack you, you run.
If you can't run, you have to deal with them and immobilize each of them when (or before) they attack you and then run. If they are drunk, then immobilizing them might be as easy as kicking their legs from under them. Still, they'll possibily slam their heads on the ground so they will get hurt then. And if you don't want them standing up again, your kicks have to be hard enough to keep them down.

If multiple people attack you, you don't try to find that absolute minimum you can do and still walk away. Because you are outnumbered and any mistake will see you dead or crippled. If multiple people attack you AND you cannot run, then you try to survive. Everything else is a distraction.


For quick reference (answers.com) has many definitions of the word fight here are a few.

To set (a boxer, for example) in combat with another.

A confrontation between opposing groups in which each attempts to harm or gain power over the other, as with bodily force or weapons.

Combat

To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.


Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See synonyms at conflict.

This is obviously undesirable, but sometimes it happens.

So to get to my point I was looking for constructive input on the matter about how we should prepare for these situations as well as teach about them. Not telling me what I should and should not know from someone who did not fully understand the post. It is not up to you what I should and should not know it is up to my instructor, and the world mooye federation. If you have any constructive advice it is welcome such as techniques you believe that would be extra effective in this type of situation.

[/QUOTE]

It would seem that offer the logical answer to the question. Perhaps I just don't want to hear, but you seem to be right.

 

[Carol]

I wouldn't necessarily say BB = armed and dangerous is an urban legend. It is certainly not as simple as BB = automatically armed and dangerous, but there is a risk.


Here is a Massad Ayoob article where he talks about the key justifications for the use of lethal force, including skill in unarmed combat.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n9_v36/ai_11363372/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.55

Regardless, its well worth the time to speak with a qualified defense attorney in your area, particularly one that is adept with firearms rights (in the U.S.) or personal protection issues. Defense attorneys do more than just get bad guys out of trouble, they can also help keep law-abiding folks on the right side of the law.

 

[MJS]

Yes I would very much like to hear anything that you think would be helpful as well as anything others think would be helpful. When training we program ourselves to do things. When I was punched in the face my first reaction was to strike the throat. I stopped myself, but the point is our first reaction is what we train ourselves to do. This was my first reaction. I don't really think that is a good thing, but it still leaves me wondering how to even the odds against multiple opponents.

The person who trained me did so in the same way they were taught. Which is if someone attacks you end it. I am not bragging but I only need about 3 or 4 inches to break a board with my hands. More than enough to crush a human throat which really any one can do either one of these easily as its really not hard.

So please contribute anything you think useful I am anything but closed minded, though I am a bit on the skeptical.

I'm sure you have much to contribute to the discussion, and I am sure you are a fine martial artist who likely knows much more than I do.

I also would like to apologize if anything is poorly worded or not clear sometimes I don't organize things the best because of a learning disability, so if anyone has trouble understanding anything please ask me to clarify and I will do so. I also want to apologize sometimes I get mad at people when they do not understand me as I forget my ability to convey information is sometimes poor at best, so if I said anything harsh I apologize.

I posted this post, from GM Powell a while ago, but felt it was relavant to this thread, so here it is again. The part that I want to focus on is:

Let's remember the martial arts derived from the military or war arts. During war, killing your attacker while disarming them is generally consider an act of survival. The same is not true of street self defense. In order to use a weapon against another, whether you brought the weapon to the scene or took it away from them, you need to be faced with imminent danger, which is based upon four factors:
Intent
Means
Opportunity
Ability

In essence, the attacker must have the intent to cause you great bodily harm or death, the means to carry out the act (can be with a knife, gun, crowbar, etc., or even hands and feet), the opportunity to carry out the act (like being close enough to you to do it), and the ability to carry out the act (like possess enough strength to stab you with the knife or bash your scull with a club).

If you disarm an attacker who came at you with a knife and knock them to the ground. They may still possess intent, but the opportunity and ability may be gone. You need all four elements to form imminent danger.

The courts will also consider if your response to an attack was reasonable. If someone swings a club at you and you stab them 10 times and slice a few tendons, you'll most likely end up in the slammer. Yes, even your response to a life threatening attack is judged!

As I said earlier, if we look at the techs. in whatever art we train, we will see some pretty brutal things. Breaks, pokes, rips, tears, you name it, you'll probably see it. We, as martial artists, should not expect everything to be handed to us, meaning, there are things that we should be looking for ourselves, not always relying on what our teachers show us. This, IMHO, is how we grow. So, this is why I'll take a technique and break it down, trying to find other ways of doing the tech. This is also another reason I like crosstraining. My Arnis training, has given me a ton of other options, as has BJJ. But this isn't a thread about crosstraining, its about how to deal with a confrontation.

Again, as I said before, I suggest assessing whats happening. Now, I'm all for not being what people call sheep or sheeple. If you're attacked, you defend yourself. This can range from being firm and confident and verbally defusing the situation, all the way to physically fighting. Talking isnt always an option, due to the fact that I'm not going to stand there, while some nut is chasing me, and try to talk to him. Someone comes charging at you, fists and teeth clenched, red face, sorry, but that tells me he isn't in the mood to have a chat over tea. LOL.

I'm not saying that we have to stand there and get the **** beat out of us, but during that defense, we need to try to be aware of what we're doing. Sure, busting up the guys face with a palm strike could land us in court, but as I've said in other threads, anything we do could land us in trouble. The difference will lie with what we did. While they're on a slightly different platform as a civilian, a LEO has many tools to use. A gun, OC, baton, taser, a dog. Situation depending, they should also adjust accordingly.

I'll close with saying this: no worries about the misunderstanding. As I said, it happens all the time online. 5 people could read the same post and most likely come up with 5 different versions of what it meant.

The above is just my opinion. I do not claim to have the final word on what to do/not to do in a SD situation. Again, its just my opinion. What I would do, or what I feel is right, may not agree with someone elses thoughts, and thats fine. Some people would rather comply and hand over their cash and keys to the badguy who's mugging them. I would rather fight for my property. Again, some will agree with that, some will disagree with that. In the end, it is us, that will have to deal with the end result. One thing that I do stand by though, is that my safety, the safety of my wife or anyone else that may be with me, is my #1 concern. While I do need to be aware, or try to be, of what I'm doing, I'm not going to let that hinder me to the point that I won't defend myself. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Balrog]

Hello everyone I have been doing some thinking lately, and I want to get a feel of what everyone else has to say. Think of this as a pole if you will. I would like to get opinions on the matter as well as anything else you feel relevant. Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

5th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Yes, as long as it is done respectfully. Questions for clarification are almost mandatory; our instructors are human and they make the occasional mistake just like us.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

Until you have students tell you how they have defended themselves, or until you have to defend yourself, you'll never know. I've had students tell me that they have defused situations just by appearing confident, and I had one young lady who was physically assaulted and left her attacker on the ground for the cops. So I have to say it works.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

Every situation is unique. The guideline that I stress is "as peaceably as possible, as forcibly as necessary". You would not be justified in doing an eye gouge against someone who shoves you; your level of response exceeds his level of attack. But the minute the level escalates to where you are in fear of serious injury or death, especially if a weapon comes out, then I teach that there are no holds barred. You're fighting to survive and if you need to tear your opponent up to do that, do so. And that includes eye gouges. Incidentally, a successful eye gouge is usually a show-stopper. It is incredibly painful and your attacker will almost always stop the attack at that point. Make sure you stop your defense as well.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

Pick one guy, blitz him and get him between you and the others. That will take him out of the picture and hopefully buy you enough space to run. If not, do it to another until you can run. If you can't and you're gonna get swarmed, pick one guy and tear him apart; you'll have company in the hospital that way. :ultracool

Self-defense is common sense more than anything. If you control your environment and stay aware, you will avoid 99.9% of everything. We train for that 0.1% element of surprise.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Self-defense is common sense more than anything. If you control your environment and stay aware, you will avoid 99.9% of everything. We train for that 0.1% element of surprise.

QFT!

Daniel

 

[Kyosanim]

5th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo.

Yes, as long as it is done respectfully. Questions for clarification are almost mandatory; our instructors are human and they make the occasional mistake just like us.

Until you have students tell you how they have defended themselves, or until you have to defend yourself, you'll never know. I've had students tell me that they have defused situations just by appearing confident, and I had one young lady who was physically assaulted and left her attacker on the ground for the cops. So I have to say it works.

Every situation is unique. The guideline that I stress is "as peaceably as possible, as forcibly as necessary". You would not be justified in doing an eye gouge against someone who shoves you; your level of response exceeds his level of attack. But the minute the level escalates to where you are in fear of serious injury or death, especially if a weapon comes out, then I teach that there are no holds barred. You're fighting to survive and if you need to tear your opponent up to do that, do so. And that includes eye gouges. Incidentally, a successful eye gouge is usually a show-stopper. It is incredibly painful and your attacker will almost always stop the attack at that point. Make sure you stop your defense as well.

Pick one guy, blitz him and get him between you and the others. That will take him out of the picture and hopefully buy you enough space to run. If not, do it to another until you can run. If you can't and you're gonna get swarmed, pick one guy and tear him apart; you'll have company in the hospital that way. :ultracool

Self-defense is common sense more than anything. If you control your environment and stay aware, you will avoid 99.9% of everything. We train for that 0.1% element of surprise.

See this is the kind of thing of thing we are not taught. We were discouraged from buying dvd's or books about techniques. It was mostly do it my way or not at all. Since leaving i have read what books I could afford to get which isn't much, but I have been trying. Don't get me wrong in the dojang I have good fighting ability, but I'm not used to uneven ground, and tactics to use against multiple enemies was never discussed we were just told if you have to fight chances are it wont be just one, and then he said we should be ready for that. Class was all one steps, kicking, sparring, and intellectual lecture about the technique we were learning. Don't get me wrong I know I am at least a decent black belt, and I am a good teacher at least in a one on one setting maybe not so great at leading classes, but I wasn't taught threat assessment, or about use of force. I was taught if some hits put your fist through them.

 

[Kyosanim]

I wouldn't necessarily say BB = armed and dangerous is an urban legend. It is certainly not as simple as BB = automatically armed and dangerous, but there is a risk.


Here is a Massad Ayoob article where he talks about the key justifications for the use of lethal force, including skill in unarmed combat.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n9_v36/ai_11363372/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.55

Regardless, its well worth the time to speak with a qualified defense attorney in your area, particularly one that is adept with firearms rights (in the U.S.) or personal protection issues. Defense attorneys do more than just get bad guys out of trouble, they can also help keep law-abiding folks on the right side of the law.

Thank you for the article and the advice.

 

[Cirdan]

My experience is Wado Ryu for 6 years, Ju Jutsu for 5.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Yes. Some things are better handled in private tough.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

Depends on what you train. Not all schools sell self defence either, many do very traditional or sports oirented systems. Most of all, it depends on you, a BB diploma in any system is not a magic charm that protects you.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal?

Laws differ. Excessive force is generally not allowed, but this is not easily defined. You should see a self defense expert in your area if you want to know more about this.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

Some general advice:

Flick the "Combat switch" in your head, you must WANT to go home in one piece.
Give them a clear message: STOP! GO HOME! This has bought me enough time to walk away on at least one occation.
Run or walk away if you can, don`t get surrounded.
Blitz one then run like Balrog said. If you can`t run, keep him between you and the others, grab and strike him until he drops. Shove him into the others. If you still can`t run, repeat.
Make NOISE, break a window, set off car alarms, shout FIRE! (more likely to bring people than "help I am being attacked")
Taking out the leader can make the rest hesitate.

 

[Drac]

Kyosanim, would you like me to edit the thread title so as to prevent possible confusion? I think the word you wanted to use was "Poll" rather than "Pole".

I did...

 

[tempus]

Nihon Goshin Aikido / Black Belt / Training for 8 Years
1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.
I think it is. Helps you to understand things better. I question all the time and get into good dicusssions. Liek when we pratice ki techniques and directing the flow of energy. I argue the ki techniques are just the law of physics. This is probably why I get used as the throwing rag doll for demo's

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?
I feel NGA is primarly self defense oriented. We attempt to train for many situations and pratice techniques that do not take a lot of energy or movement. I am only go off based what I was taught. I have never had to use it and have never been in a fight so I cannot really talk much about real life situations.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.
I am not a lawyer, but I have no issues with doing what you need to do based on the situation. If it is between the attackers eye and my last breathe, or that person getting to a family member, there eye or eyes are gone. If an attacker has put me in a desperate situation where I have to make this decision then the attacker is responsible for anything that happens to him. They choose their path, not I. I hope I am never put in a situation where I am forced to take those steps.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!
I have practiced against two to four attackers, and each level gets more difficult. We practice: Always keep moving / never go down the center between two attackers / go to the outside of who you perceive to be the weaker one / take control of the first person and use this person as a shield / try to line of the attackers so you are not flanked / kick to keep the others away(groin, knees, etc. / if you can make an opening run like the wind. You have nothing to prove. / if you can not run try to take them out one at a time by using the ideas above. It is not easy, I have lost in some training sessions and every time we practice, different things happen based on who the attackers are and if they have weapons.

-Gary

 

[ap Oweyn]

Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

About 26 years of experience, give or take. Mostly in Filipino martial arts, but I'm a mutt. Black belt first degree (lakan isa) in Doce Pares Eskrima. Haven't pursued a belt since.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Yes. Absolutely. As a student, I'm tempted to do it. As a teacher, I fully expect it. It should be noted that there are good and bad ways and reasons to question a teacher. Posturing, trying to show someone up, etc. are obviously bad reasons to question a teacher. Trying to enhance your own understanding, on the other hand, is a valid and important reason to ask questions. I don't accept, for one moment, the idea that you should keep quiet and figure it out on your own. I'm not doing my job as a teacher if I don't field questions effectively. And there's still enough complexity in any given technique that, no matter how thorough my answer, there will still be plenty for the student to deduce on their own.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

Not all martial arts schools do sell us on self defense. I personally don't teach self defense. I teach martial arts. Obviously there's crossover. But I believe that, if you're claiming to teach self defense, you should be addressing a certain set of very specific concerns. Including threat assessment, deescalation, learning curve on techniques, response to adrenaline dump, etc. You aren't learning self defense simply by virtue of learning a martial art.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)

Your methods have to match the actual threat. Taking a knife to someone who shoves you in a crowded bar isn't justified. Poking someone in the eye as they try and punch you may well be.

Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that shooting someone (regardless of the target) is a serious escalation from poking them in the eye. There are plenty of injuries to the leg that can end in death pretty promptly. I'm no doctor, but the major arteries in the leg...

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

Keep moving. Either away from as many as possible by circling around, or better yet, by legging it the moment you get a chance. Martial arts aren't magic. Common sense still applies. And common sense clearly states that getting dogpiled by eight assailants is going to suck.

I recently found myself in a bad situation where I was nearly forced to fight three persons at once. I found my self at a loss. Kicks were to risky, a punch wouldn't put them down fast enough, joint locks would have been to time consuming, and I could not afford to get tied up with one while two others were free to move. Eye gouging seemed unnecessary for three drunk morons with something to prove but still where did that leave me? luckily it was outside my house so the police got there before I was forced to do something. It seems to me better to pull a small pocket knife and cut someone up a little than to take an eye or worse both of them.

Introducing a weapon to the scenario is always going to ratchet up the legal implications. And eye gouges don't cause the eyeball to explode. Eye gouges happen in MMA matches on a fairly regular basis (by accident). It sucks. It buggers up your vision. But unless you're digging for gold in their eye socket, a knifing is going to be worse.

At least cuts heal. Eyes don't grow back.

Some knife damage heals. Unfortunately, you don't have a ton of control over the damage being done by a blade in an uncontrolled exchange. And the odds of you doing real damage seems infinitely higher, to me, with a knife.

Then there is the issue of my black belt. Why is it that people think being a black belt makes you a super human killing machine?

Nobody with any real experience thinks that.

Anyone can break a bored! Two or three is not really different. Cement yes that is hard to do, but back to the point. I feel like I no longer have the right to defend myself because I'm a black belt. Are we really counted as being armed without a weapon?

That's an urban myth

That just does not seem reasonable to me!!!

Hence the urban myth

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I read a boxing coach once who said that all you need in self defense is a good stiff jab. Now, that's a bit of hyperbole. But I do think it's true that you can go a long way with good solid footwork (including some furious backpeddling) and a good jab. There was a fight video some time back of a guy clearly trained in boxing fending off three or four assailants by stepping backward and jabbing each in the face. Looked like he could have kept it up all day.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

Honestly, I think it's you who's falling victim to the "black belts are supermen" meme. You know how to hit someone with a blunt object that happens to be a part of your body. But it's a far cry from the Hollywood "500 ways to kill a man." Be careful not to over-mystify this stuff. You have techniques. And maybe, in a perfect universe, some of them could end in death. But people have been punching and kicking each other for a very long time. Death being a fairly infrequent outcome.


Stuart