Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Wow. And I thought I might be missing out on something by not checking in more often.
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
jaybacca72 said:that is exactly why i have not taught in 8 months by my choice, i think i will just read posts for now and when some good conversation comes along maybe i will post.
later
jay
artyon:
Good ideas
DarK LorD
K
Kenpo_Chick
Guest
Ok my 2 cents worth again....
Extensions are taught to us (in my reason) to extend our learning. Just because (just for example) we learn Five swords and finish at the uppercut does not mean that our opponent is finished!! We learn Kenpo (correct me if I'm wrong), so that we may not have to fight. We are taught to run first if we get into a situation that may enter us into a fight. But lets face it, if we're in a fight on the street we are more likely to face someone that is either drunk or on drugs. If this is the case, they're not going to stop after a few fancy moves.
However learning extensions gives us the knowledge and experience to carry those moves on if we need to. We learn these moves so that we know what we feel comfortable with and ones that we don't feel comfortable with. E.g. We learn finger strikes, and yet I know if I'm in a fight on the street I would never use fingers strikes. I don't like them, they don't work for me so I WON"T USE THEM!
It's common sense!! Use what fits, but the object of your instructor is to teach what he can to you. Personally the extensions to orange and purple (all that I"ve done so far) are easy enough to do and straight forward. If I had to carry on a move I would! But being in that situation I cannot tell as adrialine may take over and I could do something completely different.
Also something that our Instructors say is that "Extensions handle the factor 'What if?'". Self defence are based on different scenarios. Extensions take us past 'someone pushing us' to 'what if someone punches and then throws a punch' (Triggered Salute for those of you wondering what move I'm talking about!) Extensions I believe are not more as a physcial test to a higher grade but rather a mental test to us. It gets us to think, to switch and swap around our moves. Our instructors in our senior class will sometimes swap endings on our moves so that we're not use to one self defence all the time and that we realise we can swap and change moves as we want.
Well that's all from this newbie...
Extensions are taught to us (in my reason) to extend our learning. Just because (just for example) we learn Five swords and finish at the uppercut does not mean that our opponent is finished!! We learn Kenpo (correct me if I'm wrong), so that we may not have to fight. We are taught to run first if we get into a situation that may enter us into a fight. But lets face it, if we're in a fight on the street we are more likely to face someone that is either drunk or on drugs. If this is the case, they're not going to stop after a few fancy moves.
However learning extensions gives us the knowledge and experience to carry those moves on if we need to. We learn these moves so that we know what we feel comfortable with and ones that we don't feel comfortable with. E.g. We learn finger strikes, and yet I know if I'm in a fight on the street I would never use fingers strikes. I don't like them, they don't work for me so I WON"T USE THEM!
It's common sense!! Use what fits, but the object of your instructor is to teach what he can to you. Personally the extensions to orange and purple (all that I"ve done so far) are easy enough to do and straight forward. If I had to carry on a move I would! But being in that situation I cannot tell as adrialine may take over and I could do something completely different.
Also something that our Instructors say is that "Extensions handle the factor 'What if?'". Self defence are based on different scenarios. Extensions take us past 'someone pushing us' to 'what if someone punches and then throws a punch' (Triggered Salute for those of you wondering what move I'm talking about!) Extensions I believe are not more as a physcial test to a higher grade but rather a mental test to us. It gets us to think, to switch and swap around our moves. Our instructors in our senior class will sometimes swap endings on our moves so that we're not use to one self defence all the time and that we realise we can swap and change moves as we want.
Well that's all from this newbie...
OP
OP
BlackPhoenix
Guest
The base move is always the most important element while the extension is the least important. A weak base move versus a good strong punch aimed and landing right between your eyes will probably leave you unconscious and on the ground. Techniques were given extension motion for several reasons with some of the more important reasons being: position recognition, development of what if scenarios and categorical completion.
The extension or “over kill” concept only happens if the base move was effective and allowed for opportunities to finish the technique. So, if the initial defensive move and counter attack were weak or infective than a multiple strike follow up becomes increasingly unlikely. A skilled fighter capable of giving you problems in completing your base move and capable of countering and connecting with his own attack could limit your “over kill” or extension motion.
Some people feel that the extension is no more than a fantasy and I must agree with this line of thought. Think about it this way, the extension only works if the base move was effective but if the base worked then your opponent will not be on his feet for you to complete your extension. So if the base works the extension wonÂ’t happen and if you must use the extension than the base was ineffective and the ineffective base in all probability will not leave you in a position to complete the extension. In other words, the extension relies on the base but a strong base cancels the necessity of an extension.
Zach Whitson
The extension or “over kill” concept only happens if the base move was effective and allowed for opportunities to finish the technique. So, if the initial defensive move and counter attack were weak or infective than a multiple strike follow up becomes increasingly unlikely. A skilled fighter capable of giving you problems in completing your base move and capable of countering and connecting with his own attack could limit your “over kill” or extension motion.
Some people feel that the extension is no more than a fantasy and I must agree with this line of thought. Think about it this way, the extension only works if the base move was effective but if the base worked then your opponent will not be on his feet for you to complete your extension. So if the base works the extension wonÂ’t happen and if you must use the extension than the base was ineffective and the ineffective base in all probability will not leave you in a position to complete the extension. In other words, the extension relies on the base but a strong base cancels the necessity of an extension.
Zach Whitson
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
This guy has no idea what the hell he's talking about either. Cupcakes for everyone:rofl:BlackPhoenix said:
DarK Lord
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Well, cleaning up after the elephants again...me n' that little guy on, "Fractured Fairy Tales."
I agree with Mr. Whitson, because I've never had an instructor snarl at a class, "Don't show me the damn extension, I don't want to see it without a strong base technique...show me a block and a punch, show me a good elbow, dammit!"
Oh wait, I forgot...been hearing that since...um...take my shoes off...five and five is...unzip...eleven...oh, since 1997.
And then too, well, I've got a pretty decent punch, block and kick. Well, for an English teacher. Why would I need an extension? I guarantee, every time I've hit the Dark One solid with the basic, he drops snivelling...oh wait, he actually laughs and tries to pull my esophagus out my...uh, nose. Why bwould I need an extension?
I must start a thread on the use of truisms in kenpo. Is it actually far worse than in other arts, or is that just my impression?
I agree with Mr. Whitson, because I've never had an instructor snarl at a class, "Don't show me the damn extension, I don't want to see it without a strong base technique...show me a block and a punch, show me a good elbow, dammit!"
Oh wait, I forgot...been hearing that since...um...take my shoes off...five and five is...unzip...eleven...oh, since 1997.
And then too, well, I've got a pretty decent punch, block and kick. Well, for an English teacher. Why would I need an extension? I guarantee, every time I've hit the Dark One solid with the basic, he drops snivelling...oh wait, he actually laughs and tries to pull my esophagus out my...uh, nose. Why bwould I need an extension?
I must start a thread on the use of truisms in kenpo. Is it actually far worse than in other arts, or is that just my impression?
Brother John
Senior Master
No, it's not just you....unfortunately.rmcrobertson said:
Far far too many a Kenpoist "Stinks of Kenpo".
Your Brother
John
Brother John
Senior Master
BlackPhoenix said:
I'm sorry Zach but I think you are still way off base.
way...
No, neither is more or less important than the other. They are both just "movement". Your premise is based on a presumption ( I think ) that the technique was meant to be carried out verbatim in an actual fight. I don't think so. They are 'points of reference', set established curricula that help us assimilate certain patterns or 'vocabulary of motion'. They are a training lesson/procedure...not a perscription. Within the ebb and flow of a real altercation you can begin and/or end at any point within a technique or techniques so long as the "Vocabulary" fits the needs of the moment.
It's like learning to speak Spanish. I can teach you 10,000 of the most used phrases in Spanish...and if you know them well and travel to a Spanish speaking country (or Florida) you still will need to know how to conjugate your own sentences. Hopefully I've also taught you not only the phrases, but why they are constructed the way they are (Grammar) and other nuances.
Bringing this to Kenpo: We learn the techniques so that we can come to understand in a visceral way the logic and the 'principles' that make those techniques work. We learn to conjugate our Kenpo for ourselves.
Just my thoughts.
Hey Robert, do I 'stink of Kenpo' or what?
Your Brother
John
Brother John said:
I agrree as well Bro John. Chances are the base tech. may not be pulled off as text book as we'd like, so therefore, the extension is going to come into play. Hmmm...those 'What if, even if" senarios are coming to mind here.
Mike
J
jeffkyle
Guest
rmcrobertson said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :roflmao:
TwistofFat
Green Belt
Gentlemen- I agree regarding the value of learning the extentions, but just wanted to comment on Black Phoenix's quote from Zach Whitson. Mr. Whitson is a sixth degree under Richard "Huk" Planas, a Guro in Pekiti-Tirsia, and a knife maker under Gil Hibben. Mr. Whitson is also the force behind the Kenpo CounterPoint series (www.kenpocounterpoint.com). ...hey, sounds like a commercial.Brother John said:
Mr. Whitson may have indeed said all in the above quote, and comes from the 'old' school of learning the fundamentals first (who isn't), but is a well rounded fighter and instructor. I would imagine he could shed some light on his opinion, but I would prefer to know what his full position on extensions may be directly from him. He will be in Pittsburgh (Ryer)and Lansdale PA (Cappi) within the next month if you would like to see him.
Thanks and regards - Glenn.
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
I think I'll pass.TwistofFat said:
DarK LorD
TwistofFat
Green Belt
DLK,
I only meant that perhaps Mr. Whitson had more to add than someone quoting him out of context. PA maybe far from mother CA - but we do what we can.
I only meant that perhaps Mr. Whitson had more to add than someone quoting him out of context. PA maybe far from mother CA - but we do what we can.
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
I've found the reason people alter the system is because they don't understand it. I can honestly say I've felt the same way about many of the same issues with Kenpo when my knowledge of it was limited (notice the past tense). As I gained more insight I'm starting to see what Mr. Parker saw when he created them, and why he left us with the curriculum outlined in Book 5 of II. Extensions are not fantasy, nor are they designed for a particular technique as many of the extensions are interchangeable.TwistofFat said:
Let me give you an example;
Squeezing the Peach is designed for a rear bear-hug arms pinned. That doesn't say a whole lot in itself as the attack is not dynamic in text. Put that attack in motion and it becomes a Rear bear-hug, arms free with a pullback to the left side. That sets the technique into motion and it allows the targets to open up by stepping back to the angle of least resistance. Now, how would it work if your opponent did the same bear hug and pushed forward. If you don't know the extension, you won't know the answer, but that's not to say that's the ONLY SOLUTION.
His whole premise of Counter-Point is Counter-Productive in the fact he's already set the ideal phase technique up for failure. LEARNING TO MAKE THE TECHNIQUE WORK IN IT'S IDEAL PHASE IS PARAMOUNT, and should the IDEAL PHASE fail, you can simply use the EQUATION FORMULA with other IDEAL PHASE techniques or EXTENSIONS, that's why you learn them. I can counter techniques done ineffectively all day long using IDEAL PHASE techniques or IDEAL PHASE EXTENSIONS for the counters, and you certainly don't need BJJ,MT, or any other art to augment your Kenpo when it's done effectively, however, learning or investigating other systems to understand their viewpoint is always a bonus to gain their insight. BJJ is a two dimensional art, and they use those two dimensions with astounding results but are still limited in their conceptions with the lack of a third dimension by being vertical. If you take those properties and apply them vertically with the third dimension, your skills will grow beyond your imagination. Kenpo, the always misunderstood martial art, will continue to stagnate and die if people never realize the fullest potential of it and themselves.
DarK LorD
I view the extensions as another learning tool. More disquised repition. Most certainly you can learn a few techniques like a boxer does and do them well enough to defend yourself in certain situations. But how many people study boxing just to learn to defend themselves with no intention of getting in the ring ? Yes there is what is known as white collar boxing, but how many people learning to box with no intent of getting in the ring are still at the gym practicing 10 yrs later. I would think that for most of them working the same jab, cross, hook, upper cut combinations get boring after several years. I am sure there are exceptions to this and I personally enjoy boxing classes and its effectiveness. But back to the extensions, they give advanced students something else to learn and practice. Remember this is now a commercial art. Mr. Parker commercialized it. Extensions is another tool that can be used to educate and keep long term students. Instead of learning a punch and then practicing it over and over again in the air and on bags or pads, Kenpo has it in a technique. Practice the technique, you end up practicing the punch for example. Learn all the techniques over and over again, now the instructor and introduce extensions and give the student more to learn and practice. Can someone learn to defend themselves without learning the extensions? Sure. Can someone learn to defend themselves without learning all the techniques? Sure. The techniques and extensions are learning tools. Tools kenpo instructors use to educate their students teaching them how to defend themselves as well as how their body should move to maximize the power principles. Try to understand Mr. Parkers method of teaching, what and why he came up with disguised repition, the impact the commercializing had. I think a lot of individuals are reading too much into the technique aspect and don't understand why there are techniques. I am not going to argue with any of you on this. To me, extensions are just another tool to enhance the kenpo learning experience. Just a tool. You most certainly do not need to know them to be a good black belt or be able to defend yourself. But if you want to further your study of EPAK, then the extensions are there to learn.
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej
Well said DKL (Clyde), and I agree wholeheartedly. It is those who do not understand the premise of the extension that often think of them as USELESS knowledge and it being repetitive. Where else do we learn the more interesting takedowns and pressure points or balance disruptions. They are not "stated" anywhere else and contain their own plethora of knowledge.
Wasted movement? Bah, humbug - you just don't know what you don't know, and your teacher may, or may not? Or his/her teacher, or now that it has been 14 years, it could be that their teacher did not know the WHY'S, just the HOW'S ... that is what separates the teacher from the student. You can teach with just the base techniques, and learn a lot, a huge, vast amount of material. But there is that much still waiting to be learned. I am still learning, about the base techniques AND extensions, and that is with 25 years AT the Art. Empty your cup and be open to exploring and learning the possibilities. Don't take anyone's word that something is useless no matter what their rank. Things I could not do 10 years ago, and could just barely see, I can do now ... the other side of the coin is I cannot do jump spin hook kicks anymore, it is a fair tradeoff, if somewhat frustrating at times.
-Michael
Wasted movement? Bah, humbug - you just don't know what you don't know, and your teacher may, or may not? Or his/her teacher, or now that it has been 14 years, it could be that their teacher did not know the WHY'S, just the HOW'S ... that is what separates the teacher from the student. You can teach with just the base techniques, and learn a lot, a huge, vast amount of material. But there is that much still waiting to be learned. I am still learning, about the base techniques AND extensions, and that is with 25 years AT the Art. Empty your cup and be open to exploring and learning the possibilities. Don't take anyone's word that something is useless no matter what their rank. Things I could not do 10 years ago, and could just barely see, I can do now ... the other side of the coin is I cannot do jump spin hook kicks anymore, it is a fair tradeoff, if somewhat frustrating at times.
-Michael
TwistofFat
Green Belt
Mr. Billings and Mr. Dark Kenpo Lord (or Mr. O, Mr. Lord.?..
),
I wholehartedly agree with your point regarding the extentions and the study/expansion within the Kenpo system (I have only been AT the art for 10 years and travel extensively to stay within EPAK). I have had instructors teach them and others scoff, but I always add them to my mental portfolio for later reference.
As I age (not gracefully), I have found that I do embrace approaches, techniques that I originally scorned (heck, the one I hated the most I know enjoy and made my nickname - Twist of Fate...with a twist).
I do not know Mr. Whitson nor have I trained with him, but respect many that have. That does not mean I agree with his commentary on the extensions, just found him to produce solid Kenpoists.
In my original post, I was attempting to say that...but failed.
Regards - Glenn.
),I wholehartedly agree with your point regarding the extentions and the study/expansion within the Kenpo system (I have only been AT the art for 10 years and travel extensively to stay within EPAK). I have had instructors teach them and others scoff, but I always add them to my mental portfolio for later reference.
As I age (not gracefully), I have found that I do embrace approaches, techniques that I originally scorned (heck, the one I hated the most I know enjoy and made my nickname - Twist of Fate...with a twist).
I do not know Mr. Whitson nor have I trained with him, but respect many that have. That does not mean I agree with his commentary on the extensions, just found him to produce solid Kenpoists.
In my original post, I was attempting to say that...but failed.
Regards - Glenn.
Bill Lear
Brown Belt
Michael Billings said:
I have trouble with this analogy. Why empty my cup to fill it with something else? That implies that I have to unlearn in order to learn. I'm humble enough to understand that there are people in this world with bigger cups than mine... Why shouldn't I just get a bigger cup and make room for the new stuff on top of what I already have?
:asian:
Dark Kenpo Lord said:
Wrong.
First, Zach is an awesome kenpoist. Don't short his knowlege of Kenpo nor his ability to use it.
Second, he has devised a new way to study kenpo and perhaps to more quickly gain mastery. I have no problems if others don't wish to use counterpoint training, and I'm sure Zach doesn't care. I suspect that if Mr. Parker were here he would at least be intrigued by Counterpoint training.
Third. What is this nonsense about only one way to do a technique and the need to fit everything into the equation formula. I never met Mr. Parker, but in the video tapes I've seen he's never done a technique the same way twice and never "by the book."
Personally, I have no problem with you studying Kenpo the way you do. I am sure that you do it well and that your system works well for you and others. Personally I do find value in the extensions, but I've also found that the counterpoint exercises help people develop sponteneity.
I respect your right to study and teach Kenpo in your own manner. I'm troubled that you show such deep direspect for people who differ from your opinion. Kenpo is bigger than that.
Jeff
K
kenpoangel
Guest
Could you define, "spontaneity," exactly for us, Jeff?
Thanks,
Robert
Thanks,
Robert
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