Extentions

[Brother John]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank.

It all depends on what you think they are there to teach you.
I don't think that the techniques are taught in our schools or trained by our practitioners in order to perform them verbatim on the street. No no. We may only needs bits of this and bits of that...we will simply 'perform' when it comes to the street. A technique is vocabulary. An extension of a technique is just further vocabulary. Simple as that.

Your Brother
John

 

[Bill Lear]

Years ago a friend of mine and I came up with extensions to the yellow belt techniques. Specifically, we added a hangmans choke to the end of Mace of Aggression. When the opportunity presented itself to me last February... I executed this technique and the extension (the one my friend and I came up with) as a conditioned response. Almost like I was on autopilot.

I have to say that I agree with Mr. Parker's anaology of techniques being like words of motion. When someone talks to me I don't scramble to create new words at the last minute to converse with them, but instead draw upon my exhistant knowledge to reply intelligently and effectively. I can admit that people these days have, however, come up with some pretty crazy things to say sometimes (i.e. bootylicious). :ultracool

 

[BlackPhoenix]

Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.

All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case. I've seen it a million time at demos, seminars and tournaments... You've got practioners executing below average base techs and even worse extentions. To the layman person observing it can be an illusion of expertise. To a expert or real fighter it can sometimes turn out to be a joke. In our Kenpo industry we have thousand of Black Belts who may know most of or all of the physical material...But ask them if they truely understand what is under ther surface of just the Base Techniques. You'll get a different answer.

For most practitioners it always faster, faster, faster...touch, touch, touch, instead of hitting hard, harder and even harder with accuracy on the base.

I'm not saying that a technique in the Dojo is what it should be on the street.

Gotta disagree with you here. You're making it sound like if you train the 'ideal' tech over and over, then that is all that you'll need? What about the "what if/even if" situations? Thats what the extensions are all about....the What If!!! What are you going to do if that "ideal" phase tech. doesnt work or if something goes wrong? You had better have something to fall back on.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.

All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case. I've seen it a million time at demos, seminars and tournaments... You've got practioners executing below average base techs and even worse extentions. To the layman person observing it can be an illusion of expertise. To a expert or real fighter it can sometimes turn out to be a joke. In our Kenpo industry we have thousand of Black Belts who may know most of or all of the physical material...But ask them if they truely understand what is under ther surface of just the Base Techniques. You'll get a different answer.

For most practitioners it always faster, faster, faster...touch, touch, touch, instead of hitting hard, harder and even harder with accuracy on the base.

I'm not saying that a technique in the Dojo is what it should be on the street.

Dude- I understand what you're saying but I dont think that you understand what I'm saying as well as some of the others here. First, I would hope that by the time the student reached the level where the extensions are taught, that he/she would have a very good understanding of the base tech. The ext. are taught at brown, and I'd really hope that by that time, Delayed Sword would be able to be done in your sleep. Second, there is no way that a real fight can be predicted. You always need to take into account the what if situation. That is where the ext. come into play. Even with a base tech. the chance of it being executed fully night not happen, but you need to have something to fall back on. You seem to be in some fantasy world where you think that the 'one punch, one kill' is a sure shot. Not the case. If you do execute a tech. and the person is still standing, and comes at you again, or if during the course of the tech. it does not go as textbook as you'd hope, then again, thats where the ext. are gonna come into play.

By the way. I'm still waiting for a reply to my question that I asked. You said that you've been doing Kenpo for a long time and that you only want to learn from a 1st gen. teacher. My question: How long have you been training, and who are all the 1st gen. Inst. that you're talking to???

Mike

 

[MJS]

But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques.

Well, if thats the case, the Inst whos teaching must not be any good if he lets them by with not knowing the base techs. down.

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

By the way. I'm still waiting for a reply to my question that I asked. You said that you've been doing Kenpo for a long time and that you only want to learn from a 1st gen. teacher. My question: How long have you been training, and who are all the 1st gen. Inst. that you're talking to???

Mike

I am intriqued by this question also and curious for the answer.

- Ceicei

 

[Brother John]

Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.

All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case.

I agree. But I think you are missing the point.
I agree that the base technique must be up to a high standard BEFORE the student is even shown the extension! No doubt. Any you are correct, MORE doesn't essentially mean better! No no. But each extention is a new experience, a new or different bit of vocabulary that adds...in the end...to your overall ability.
Put it like this, what if (my favorite Kenpo question) the info in the extentions were distilled and put into their own technique...independent of any other technique before or after them... would you still have the same problem with them??? Then your argument would be more like saying "I don't see why we need all those techniques past brown belt! Some haven't even gotten good at the pre-black belt techniques.... the pre-browns are enough.." See what I'm saying???
Your Brother
John

 

[MJS]

I am intriqued by this question also and curious for the answer.

- Ceicei

LOL! Yeah, I know. And if you'll notice, we've yet to get a reply!! Something else to make you wonder.

Mike

 

[BlackPhoenix]

And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with. It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C. I've also gotten different info from all of them too. I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.

LOL! Yeah, I know. And if you'll notice, we've yet to get a reply!! Something else to make you wonder.

Mike

 

[MJS]

And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with. It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C. I've also gotten different info from all of them too. I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.

Thanks for the reply. I had the chance quite a while ago to attend a seminar with Palanzo. So, tell me something....with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks for the reply. I had the chance quite a while ago to attend a seminar with Palanzo. So, tell me something....with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike

Mike:

I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it. Water to a fish kinda thing. I'm that way with "i before e" words.

D.

 

[MJS]

Mike:

I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it. Water to a fish kinda thing. I'm that way with "i before e" words.

D.

LOL! Yup, you're probably right on that one!!

Mike

 

[BlackPhoenix]

Well to be honest...some do but some don't. And this is all for different reasons. Also alot of this could have to do with the time period they trained with Mr.Parker. I do agree that The extention can teach some cool things. But there are two side to everything. For myself...there is the fighting aspect of it and there is the exploration of the art side to it also. ( Mental, Spiritual and Physical... Dragon, Phoenix, Tiger ).

with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike[/QUOTE]

 

[Brother John]

Mike:

I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it. Water to a fish kinda thing. I'm that way with "i before e" words.

D.

DARN thems trixy wordses!!!

Ya know, I've always done that!!!
....sion
confused with
....tion

oh well... :uhyeah:
Yar Bruthur
Gyoughn

 

[MJS]

DARN thems trixy wordses!!!

Ya know, I've always done that!!!
....sion
confused with
....tion

oh well... :uhyeah:
Yar Bruthur
Gyoughn

:boing2: :boing2: :boing2:

Hay, no problem bruthur Gon

Myke!! LOL

 

[MJS]

Well to be honest...some do but some don't. And this is all for different reasons. Also alot of this could have to do with the time period they trained with Mr.Parker. I do agree that The extention can teach some cool things. But there are two side to everything. For myself...there is the fighting aspect of it and there is the exploration of the art side to it also. ( Mental, Spiritual and Physical... Dragon, Phoenix, Tiger ).

with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike

[/QUOTE]

Well thats too bad that you dont see the importance of the extenSions!

Mike

 

[MJS]

And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with. It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C. I've also gotten different info from all of them too. I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.

Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other. How long have you been training and what rank??? Its not a difficult question here! But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!

Mike

 

[Bill Lear]

Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other. How long have you been training and what rank??? Its not a difficult question here! But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!

Mike

I want to know the secret techniques that Kumu-Palani taught him, but that would involve a couple pitchers of beer and a guitar. Frank says he would've show'd me, but I can't play the guitar worth beans!

:cheers: :idunno:

 

[BlackPhoenix]

How are you doing...

I started training in Mr.Parker's American Kenpo when I started Kanzen Kenpo in 1990. My Rank Is'nt that important. But it's 2nd Degree. Recieved from Kumu Palani in 1999. I've also trained in Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen Kenpo, Shotokan, Shuri-Te, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Boxing & Wrestling. I started combative forms of training/martial arts around 1980.

To some degree my best teacher though was the streets. There's no substitute for experience and applied knowledge.

With all respect...I did not have any intention of telling anyone my rank or level of expertise because I'm not here for avy level of braging rights about rank. I'm only here to learn as many ideas as I can and have good intellectual conversation with fellow brother and sister Martial Artists and Fighters.

Sorry if I made any one feel uncomfortable.

Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other. How long have you been training and what rank??? Its not a difficult question here! But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!

Mike

 

[BlackPhoenix]

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say...Do you?

Well thats too bad that you dont see the importance of the extenSions!

Mike[/QUOTE]