Re:Parker/Tracy linage

[deadhand31]

Yeah! He's certified! It came with the tapes!!!

 

[Dave Simmons]

Hey No Name,

I've heard that "Al Tracy was only a Brown Belt" with Parker for to many years. Unfortunately if that were really true that would create a big problem for some big name Kenpo folks.

The first and foremost man would be Sigung Steve LaBounty who do you think promoted him to Black Belt? Al Tracy! The point is you are incorrect about Al Tracy's rank from Parker. If the Kenpo population believed your BS that means that Parker let lower non Black belts run his school(s) and also allowed them to open Parker KKA schools with his blessings. That "little diploma" you are referring to was the offical cert used at the time.

Whenever I hear these same old stories I feel sorry for the people who believe them. All you have to do is check the information out with the people who were there...

Dave Simmons
www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Let me clear this post Up a bit..............

Originally posted by Not Important

To Quote Golden Dragon:
"You stated............
(I didn't quote this... Chiduce did....... I was responding to Him).

Chiduce stated...

"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Goldendragon responded.......

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... don't you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracy's modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system. After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills, advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification. He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

**********
You went on to state................. (not me, Chiduce...)
Chiduce stated........
"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Goldendragon7 responded.......
Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner. "

**********
Not Important now states.........

I agree with what you say, except for this allows people and people take this to mean that Mr. Parker promoted them to Black Belt............:

Golden Dragon wrote:
"While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". "

Yes, Goldendragon7 said that.

**********
Not Important now continues.......
Mr. Tracy was never promoted to more than a Brown Belt by Mr. Parker, he was given a diploma recognizing his rank, which is something else all together. Lots of people got those small little diplomas like that, and that was part of an amends that they were making at one point that was short lived..............

GD7 now informs................
Well, I respectfully disagree with you. There was a rumor that surfaces from time to time saying that Tracy was only a Brown Belt. I have several extremely qualified sources that were there at the time in addition to what Ed Parker told me personally himself (so if you wish to disagree ..... that is ok to do, I just can't agree with you) and I can assure you that Al WAS a Black Belt at that time by that times standards.

**********
Not Important continues.......
It is a different system that is based on a small part of "what was" American Kenpo at that time in it's life...........

And in most peoples eyes they consider the Tracy's Kenpo a style, not a system.............

GD7 responds......
By definition it is a System (Tracy's) no matter how you cut the pie. The "most people" that you speak of, may not understand the difference in terminology that is used. But they can call it what ever they want to or view it how they wish. Style has to do with the personal adaptation of the curriculum. System describes curriculum.

I hope that clears this up.....
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I totally agree with you Dave. I know where this started and was involved with several conversations with Mr. Parker on this very subject. LOL.

We know the truth. So, let the others say what they wish. lol

The Goldendragon...... the Imperial Dragon, king of all the dragons.

 

[Dave Simmons]

For clearing up who said what and how...

Geez I hate old BS stories.


Dave Simmons

 

[Zoran]

...I recognize who "Not Important" is.

 

[Blindside]

Sometimes I think that people who are really knowledgable about something see relatively minor differences as big huge glaring changes. I can see the similarities between the kenpo club and FMA sticks and yet others tell me they are completely different. How the silat "puter kepala" occurs in every martial art I've studied. How the inward parry/hammerfist to bicep combination from Spinning Log or Reversing Wind is called a gunting or destruction. How kenpo checks relate to Wing Chun traps. How kenpo kicks really aren't all that different (at all) from those I learned in Isshin-ryu when I was a kid.

From all these examples of similarties between relatively unrelated arts, is it any wonder why I don't see a huge difference between the Tracy and Parker lines? I'm not saying that the Tracy and Parker lines aren't different, but that when you compare them against the bulk of the martial arts world they are much more alike than different.

Posted by Not Important:

"It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system."

So just how different is the American kenpo from Tracy Kenpo? Is it farther apart than TKD and TSD? How about Shotokan and Wado-ryu? Or Cabales Serrada Escrima and Doce Pares? Muay Thai and unarmed Bando? Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut?

My opinion is that the similarity is alot closer than you think.

Salute,

Lamont

 

[Not Important]

**********
Not Important now states.........

I agree with what you say, except for this allows people and people take this to mean that Mr. Parker promoted them to Black Belt............:

Golden Dragon wrote:
"While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". "

Yes, Goldendragon7 said that.

**********
Not Important now continues.......
Mr. Tracy was never promoted to more than a Brown Belt by Mr. Parker, he was given a diploma recognizing his rank, which is something else all together. Lots of people got those small little diplomas like that, and that was part of an amends that they were making at one point that was short lived..............

GD7 now informs................
Well, I respectfully disagree with you. There was a rumor that surfaces from time to time saying that Tracy was only a Brown Belt. I have several extremely qualified sources that were there at the time in addition to what Ed Parker told me personally himself (so if you wish to disagree ..... that is ok to do, I just can't agree with you) and I can assure you that Al WAS a Black Belt at that time by that times standards.

*************



I remember Mr. Parker and myself having a conversation after I finished teaching at the Pasadena school one day, (back then Mr. Parker called it a studio though....), and was rather upset because of things going on with the Tracy Brothers, he told me that he had not promoted them, but he had recognized them. Giving a certificate of recognition is much different than promoting, and I have seen the diploma myself from Al Tracy.

I knew all of the brothers, and can say that they were great business men, and have made their mark, but they in Mr. Parkers own words not promoted, and they were never birthed into the rank by him. Mr. Parker giving him the certificate did recognize him and he said so, Mr. Parker said that Al Tracy was at the level of Black Belt by those times standards, just not promoted to that rank by him.

Do you remember when Al Tracy published in a MA magazine that any of his Purple Belts could beat up any of Mr. Parkers Black Belts????? I remember getting a phone call the day it came out....

Enough with this stuff anyway, this why I disappeared before, I hate politics.....

Well, now I know who you are by looking at your profile, I did notice a hint of Mr. Lonny Coots, in your views of expression. He was in many classes that I taught in Pasadena....., and we were in classes together that Mr. Parker taught as well...

I hope all is well with you.....

If we are not to agree, then that is the way it is too be.....If you are still in contact with Mr. Coots, please tell him Mr. B says hello.....

 

[Goldendragon7]

Mr. B...


You may be mistaken, Mr. Coots was not from California and did not work out in Pasadena. He was always a student of Gary Swan's in Arizona and Texas. He did take a couple of lessons with Mr. Parker back in the late 70's but not "many" classes.

:asian:

 

[Not Important]

That is a subjective term, and I ment it relative to the situation, including the classes that we were in.........

 

[Rob_Broad]

Both arts have moved in the directions they have chosen to follow. The Tracy system has tried to traditionalize their kenpo, the one thing Ed Parker never wanted to happen to his art. The American Kenpoists have explore, and delved deeper into their art to make more the for the individual. It all boils down to what the person wants to learn, if they are give a fair, honest choice. In many cases there is only one group or the other. If both styles are available you often only hear about the good from one group while they bash the other, and if you go to the other school it is usually the same. I believe it all comes down to what the indivual student wants. If they want their kenpo dictated with every possible thing already worked out, go to Tracys, if they want to explore and learn for themselves, nad have a clear define language of motion choose American Kenpo.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Both arts have moved in the directions they have chosen to follow. The Tracy system has tried to traditionalize their kenpo, the one thing Ed Parker never wanted to happen to his art. The American Kenpoists have explore, and delved deeper into their art to make more the for the individual. It all boils down to what the person wants to learn, if they are give a fair, honest choice. In many cases there is only one group or the other. If both styles are available you often only hear about the good from one group while they bash the other, and if you go to the other school it is usually the same. I believe it all comes down to what the indivual student wants. If they want their kenpo dictated with every possible thing already worked out, go to Tracys, if they want to explore and learn for themselves, nad have a clear define language of motion choose American Kenpo.

I feel your statement is too generalized. It really comes down to the school or the intructor. I know Tacy Kenpo instructors that our constantly trying to find new inovations and ideas to their art. On the other hand, I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necesarily the system.

Rule #1, There are exception to every rule, including rule #1.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Zoran


I feel your statement is too generalized. It really comes down to the school or the intructor. I know Tacy Kenpo instructors that our constantly trying to find new inovations and ideas to their art. On the other hand, I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necesarily the system.

Rule #1, There are exception to every rule, including rule #1.

Or maybe the problem is people try to read too much into what is not there! If I had 2 instructor that were both motivated and at equal rank, one teachng AK the other Tracys I would rather go with the AK material. I was trying to be political correct with my answer but it was pushed so I will say what I feel. The Tracy system preaches cookie cutter kenpo, for this do that, for that do this. The American kenpo allows for more tailoring of your art, and much more growth if the instructor does not fall into the rut of trying to traditionalize it.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Zoran

I've also found American Kenpo instructors that still teach the curriculum exactly as it was in 1990, with no additions or modification, which makes the system traditionalized. So it really comes down to the instructor, not necessarily the system.

This could be misleading. If one really understands American Kenpo, you will realize that there are in fact "layers" of learning expansions. I teach the entire system with all the basics, forms, sets, 154 Self Defense Techniques, Coordination Exercises, Freestyle Techniques, Sayings, Creed and Pledges, drills, and all bells and whistles that are there, but more important is the "method" in which I teach the curriculum and instill in the students the ability to teach so as to learn from the material as well. The initial layer (the Base Way or Ideal Phase as some call it) as the Introduction to the System. As one advances, you must then revisit all the belts once again and rediscover deeper understandings of the curriculum thru the "What if Phase", this can be quite extensive. The work one does in the Ideal and what if Phases may last years due to the endless variable expansions and different areas of the art to examine.... (basics, forms/sets, & sparring, etc.), all these areas of study require skill development and application of material which depends upon ones personal commitment and natural abilities.

Now, if someone views an individual during the "Intro" Phase, that person could be termed as "Traditional Kenpo" in the eyes of the viewer because of where he is on his personal Kenpo Journey at that time. Five years later, you may observe many different options, activities, mental and skill developments that was not present prior.

I agree in part as you say it is the instructor and not the system, but the instructor needs a good system to assist him in his task.

:asian:

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



Or maybe the problem is people try to read too much into what is not there! If I had 2 instructor that were both motivated and at equal rank, one teachng AK the other Tracys I would rather go with the AK material. I was trying to be political correct with my answer but it was pushed so I will say what I feel. The Tracy system preaches cookie cutter kenpo, for this do that, for that do this. The American kenpo allows for more tailoring of your art, and much more growth if the instructor does not fall into the rut of trying to traditionalize it.

All I was trying to say is not all Tracy Kenpo instructors teach Kenpo as you describe, just as not all Parker's American Kenpo intructors teach in the way you described. All I'm trying to do is show the other side of the coin. I really was not trying to push you into anyrthing. If that is the way my post came across, you have my apology. All I was trying to do is help generate an interesting discussion. Trust me, I have more than a few not so politicaly correct opinions myself.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


I agree in part as you say it is the instructor and not the system, but the instructor needs a good system to assist him in his task.

:asian:

Agreed! :asian:

What motivated my post is too many people try to put things in to neat little categories. I was trying to show that people, systems, life, and so on have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Lets say you lived in an area with only 3 MA schools near you.
1) An average instructor from a great system.
2) A good instructor from a good system.
3) A great instructor from an average system.
Which would you choose. I would imagine it's up to the individual.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Well, as a beginner....... I would have no knowledge on just what the difference between a "good or great system" is. So my decision would heavily depend upon which instructor seem the best for what I was looking for at the time. As I grow in knowledge and skill this may change. and often does.

:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Zoran


All I was trying to say is not all Tracy Kenpo instructors teach Kenpo as you describe, just as not all Parker's American Kenpo intructors teach in the way you described. All I'm trying to do is show the other side of the coin. I really was not trying to push you into anyrthing. If that is the way my post came across, you have my apology. All I was trying to do is help generate an interesting discussion. Trust me, I have more than a few not so politicaly correct opinions myself.

I have seen the other side of the coin the first 13 yrs of my training were inthe Tracy system. There are more tools in the American Kenpo system than in the Tracy system. There are more techniques in the Tracy system they often lead into redundancy, but there is still more.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well, as a beginner....... I would have no knowledge on just what the difference between a "good or great system" is. So my decision would heavily depend upon which instructor seem the best for what I was looking for at the time. As I grow in knowledge and skill this may change. and often does.

:asian:

Okay, you got me. I submit on that one.:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

When people start asking the what if about styles when comparing them. I like to ask what if dog was spelled C-A-T. It will make you wonder, but if a person is not teaching the way Al Tracy prescribes it are you still doing Tracy Kenpo? yes there will always be a few exceptional people doing a little different/better than the rest but they are not the norm. I was putting things in a neat package to try and not get 1500 messages from people about my views on Tracy kenpo.