"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[geezer]

I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.

"Medication time Mr. Cheswick...."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And I would say you don't know what the hell you're talking about, have an agenda to drive, or are protecting your ego by defending a thesis proven to be false.

So, you know, whatever dude.

Some more of this 'Friendly Martial Arts Discussion' I see. And from a MT 'Advisor'. Well done. So now I have a mod, and admin and an advisor piling on because I dared to challenge a particular cherished dogma.

Let's see, what was the original question of this thread?

"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

I disagreed, and I clearly stated why I disagree. And unless the rules of this forum have changed since I've been away, I don't have to agree and I'm free to express why I don't agree. So Iklawson, I do have an agenda. It's to state my beliefs based upon my experience. And the 'thesis' hasn't proven to be false. I'm in the field, most of you are not. So, you know, whatever dude to you as well.

You keep mentioning your long list of "real world" and LEO experiences where you used your MA. Can you list and describe these encounters to help us understand where you are coming from?

I began training in the martial arts in 1975. I entered the military in 1985 and began teaching MA overseas in 1986. In 1990 I became a Deputy. Through all of that I've been on specific teams and in special ops as well as HL assignments in L.E. I have been an instructor since 1996 in Police firearms and Defensive Tactics, Israeli Urban Survival and Defensive Tactics, Israeli Instinctive Shooting, SPEAR, PCR, and edged weapon defense. Over the course of the last two + decades I've taught more than a thousand police, corrections, EP agents,security and private citizens in the MA, DT, firearms and CCW licensing. Personally, I stopped counting uses-of-force on-duty over a decade ago but it was approaching a thousand then. I've been in deadly force incidents multiple times on both ends of a firearm and I've faced individuals (violent felons) in edged weapon altercations.

I'd be happy to detail why I hold the opinions that I hold on sport training methodology vs. self-defense training methodology, particularly for high liability professionals. And I have had one of my articles published in a TKD publication to that effect.

I'm on my way to a meeting in a bit, but will give a simple example to start off with. In the Judo thread I stated that sport Judo is not a go training system for L.E. and that it has to be modified to be useful. Same with BJJ or MMA or TKD or anything. Some folks choose to lose their minds rather than engage in a more in-depth analysis on the subject. Let's take a simple 'hip toss' as taught in Judo or a number of other sport arts. Does a hip toss work? Sure. Does it work for every application? No! For example, it is one thing to be on soft mats, in a martial arts uniform (such as a heavy Judo Gi for example, which is heavy for a reason i.e. it is used to grab) and hip toss an opponent. It is entirely another story to be a police officer on the street wearing body armor and a batman belt with sidearm, intermediate weapons (taser, baton, O.C. etc) as well as cuffs, 911 tool, MTM mask, flashlight and a myriad of other things the agency may require. Now you're trying to hip toss a violent, resisting attacker/individual not wearing a heavy gi, that doesn't want to be thrown, that may or may not be armed and may or may not be an EDP and/or high on drugs (which can give super human strength and pain resistance). So to hip toss that sort of idiot I have to put my hip into it of course. Which hip? The one with my gun? The one with my taser? Or baton or OC? No thank you. I'm not going to purposely push a weapon towards an individual like that unless I had no other choice. And even then it is still different that the hip itself. Can if be done? Perhaps. Is it the best thing to do? Not even close. Try hip tossing someone that is high and pissed off wearing all of that stuff. By the way, bad guys in prison train to defeat that sort of stuff, and yes, we have video of them training for that sort of thing. Even the simple stuff like patting them down while they are leaning against a wall (just like Hollywood portrays). They train do defeat things like this.

So in short (to late) a traditional Judo hip toss, as taught in a sport dojo is an extremely bad choice to attempt in the environment I am talking about. There are better, real world options available to consider rather than this example. Later, if anyone is interested, I can discuss other 'sport' go-to/gee-whiz moves that everyone loves (cross body arm bar, triangle arm bar guilotine, rear naked choke) that are detrimental for HL professionals to use. At least with heavy modification. That's why I gave the example of Gracie having to heavily modify BJJ for use in L.E. in our regional training center and why it eventually fell away in favor of systems like SPEAR, PCR, Jujutsu 101 etc.

 

[lklawson]

Some more of this 'Friendly Martial Arts Discussion' I see.

This IS friendly. Keep up your current foolishness and you may see a decline.

And from a MT 'Advisor'. Well done.

You're welcome.

So now I have a mod, and admin and an advisor piling on because I dared to challenge a particular cherished dogma.

No. It's because you stubbornly refuse to admit that the thesis you are promoting has been thoroughly debunked and disproven. You are acting like the martial arts equivalent of a Flat Earther so don't act all surprised when you are treated like a Flat Earther.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This IS friendly. Keep up your current foolishness and you may see a decline.

No, it hasn't been friendly at all. Certainly not like it use to be. And it is you that are acting foolishly and letting your emotions guide your key strokes. But sure, I'd like to see you decline. Continue with your hostility, I'll continue to discuss the topic with anyone that may be interested in actually discussing the topic.

No. It's because you stubbornly refuse to admit that the thesis you are promoting has been thoroughly debunked and disproven.

They have not been disproven at all. I stand by my opinion and experiences. The fact you don't agree doesn't make me wrong. In fact, just the opposite. I'm not one of the folks here that 'has a friend that's a cop'. I'm in the field and I am providing factual information (such as O'Neill's statements and Gracies training changing). That fact that it goes against your pre-conceived bias is your issue, not mine.

I will continue to address the topic of this thread with my viewpoint, experience and professional opinion. If that's not to your liking, too bad. I believe there is an 'ignore' function on the board. Use it.

 

[Buka]

Man, there's just something about this thread. I'm stumped as to why it causes so much turmoil. But since I'm in Law Enforcement, and since I've done some BJJ, and since I was a cop before I had ever done any BJJ, and since I teach certain aspects of BJJ in Defensive Tactics for twenty something years, and since I've worked in departments that both use and don't use aspects of BJJ in DT, I get to have a say that comes from some experience. Harrumph harrumph. So...

I think every cop should learn patience. And I think a quote that says it best is this.

Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting. Joyce Meyer

In other words.....chill out guys.

 

[drop bear]

I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.

It will get more surreal. Because we will have a complete role reversal now.

Where before the argument that "I am a cop. I train cops they don't die so my training is proven." Was taken as cannon.

And
"You are not a cop and therefore don't understand the specific circumstances of the discussion so your logic is invalid" can be used be used indiscriminately.

Now the same people are going to have issue with that concept. As someone uses that logic to quite simply support anything he wants.

 

[drop bear]

Man, there's just something about this thread. I'm stumped as to why it causes so much turmoil. But since I'm in Law Enforcement, and since I've done some BJJ, and since I was a cop before I had ever done any BJJ, and since I teach certain aspects of BJJ in Defensive Tactics for twenty something years, and since I've worked in departments that both use and don't use aspects of BJJ in DT, I get to have a say that comes from some experience. Harrumph harrumph. So...

I think every cop should learn patience. And I think a quote that says it best is this.

Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting. Joyce Meyer

In other words.....chill out guys.

And I mentioned this in this thread a lot.

If your system works. There has to be something that separates your system from other systems that don't work.

Being a cop and bashing fools doesn't separate your method from anyone else.

And coming from years of bouncing. I know guys who have bashed heaps of guys on the job who have engaged in no more defensive training than smashing too many Bundys getting drunk and breaking a few skulls on a Saturday night.

And that means there is nothing that separates that method of self defense training from anyone else's.

So it comes down to. (And I mentioned this as well)

Accountability for your training methodology. Of which I have never experienced within an industry training program.

And the reason this raises so much ire is that it is my skull on the line if the training doesn't work.

 

[drop bear]

. So to hip toss that sort of idiot I have to put my hip into it of course. Which hip? The one with my gun? The one with my taser? Or baton or OC? No thank you. I'm not going to purposely push a weapon towards an individual like that unless I had no other choice.

The thing is you are basing your conclusions on a few misconceptions that change the technical nature of the discussion.

So for example unless you are concerned a hip toss will hurt the guy you are throwing to greatly. Then mats don't factor in.

Because I am not landing on them. At worst I am landing on you. And you will be my mat in that instance.

Otherwise you are not really addressing the retention issue as well as you could be. To start with. The best way to loose a weapon in a fight is to loose that fight. That is going to be the greatest risk of loosing stuff of your belt kit.

So your alternatives can't be dumb. (And we will get in to the SPEAR system in a bit)

But you can also mitigate the risk of giving access to belt kit. And we can test the availability of that access through scientific method.

In simple terms can you actually pull a gun out of a holster mid way through a Judo throw? Or is this a risk that is unlikely though testing?

Can you mitigate that risk by underhooking the arm that is near the gun?

Or is the risk presented by by that throw reducing a greater risk. Say he has double underhooks or a sleeper hold?

 

[drop bear]

So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.

What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.

Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side. Problem solved with a small fix.

 

[drop bear]

Rather than.

And by the way. The forward drive is done with your legs.

 

[TMA17]

So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.

What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.

Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side. Problem solved with a small fix.

That was nice.

 

[CB Jones]

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the end that's all it is just an opinion.

When I transferred into plain clothes my 1st sgt. Gave me this advice that I have always try to remind myself of....

"Over your career you will get a lot of advice on tactics and methods....many instructors will tell you that the tactic or methods are the best....but in the end it's just another tool....sometimes that took works for the job and sometimes it doesnt.....the smart thing to do is collect as many tools as you can so that you have the tool you need for that situation."

 

[drop bear]

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the end that's all it is just an opinion.

When I transferred into plain clothes my 1st sgt. Gave me this advice that I have always try to remind myself of....

"Over your career you will get a lot of advice on tactics and methods....many instructors will tell you that the tactic or methods are the best....but in the end it's just another tool....sometimes that took works for the job and sometimes it doesnt.....the smart thing to do is collect as many tools as you can so that you have the tool you need for that situation."

Exactly. It is not like evidence would ever outweigh anecdotes when trying to separate fact from fiction.

It is just everyone opinion all with equal merit.

 

[drop bear]

That was nice.

He is straight up the bom digity when it comes to practical application of judo.

The irony is, not even Dan Kelly, but the kid who was partnered up with him would eat Tony Blauer alive.

And if you could get to Melbourne you could probably train with that guy for virtually nothing.

 

[dvcochran]

I did find the "1000's of high risk encounters" comical.

 

[drop bear]

I did find the "1000's of high risk encounters" comical.

If it's not on. It's not on.

 

[lklawson]

So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.

What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.

Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side. Problem solved with a small fix.

While it was nicely done, it was pretty much just a stock Koshi Guruma. Nothing special about it. And it shows up in almost every martial art that includes throwing, including old school boxing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No, it hasn't been friendly at all. Certainly not like it use to be. And it is you that are acting foolishly and letting your emotions guide your key strokes. But sure, I'd like to see you decline. Continue with your hostility, I'll continue to discuss the topic with anyone that may be interested in actually discussing the topic.



They have not been disproven at all. I stand by my opinion and experiences. The fact you don't agree doesn't make me wrong. In fact, just the opposite.

The fact that I disagree with you makes you right? Whatever.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Actually, i just remembered something. The shiv works person has a few BJJ moves in it. At least he cited them as the BJJ name if they exist elsewhere. and not having done a class at there nor done any BJJ i cant comment on what i see people doing on the few snippet videos you can get.


Probably completely irreverent but it just crossed my mind and if there is any use in that information someone can use it.

 

[drop bear]

Actually, i just remembered something. The shiv works person has a few BJJ moves in it. At least he cited them as the BJJ name if they exist elsewhere. and not having done a class at there nor done any BJJ i cant comment on what i see people doing on the few snippet videos you can get.


Probably completely irreverent but it just crossed my mind and if there is any use in that information someone can use it.

No they use the game changing sole of the foot. Because in the street you are wearing shoes.

Where in MMA they use the bottom part of the foot because it is sport and they have bare feet.