"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[ballen0351]

A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.

Naa it's about priority. Plenty of officers find time to train in MA several days a week or got to college or run part-time businesses or anything else they choose to prioritize. I think most officers don't train because they don't want to.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Buka]

Love it!

 

[TMA17]

Saw this today on my instructor's FB page. Nice.

 

[TMA17]

Where I'm going they offer BJJ and Muay Thai. They do a self defense JJ class every Thursday. I went tonight and it was good. It was Gracie SD fundamentals.

I'm not sure how much BJJ you need to know to subdue your average street thug. I don't think it would be much.

 

[Buka]

Where I'm going they offer BJJ and Muay Thai. They do a self defense JJ class every Thursday. I went tonight and it was good. It was Gracie SD fundamentals.

I'm not sure how much BJJ you need to know to subdue your average street thug. I don't think it would be much.

But then you might not have subdued that many average street thugs. Very few are easy, most are anything but. But that's why we all train.

 

[TMA17]

You are right Buka.

 

[pdg]

A few random thoughts and questions - bearing in mind I've not done a DT course and I'm in a different country.

Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?

A few pages ago there was a statement that there have been 8 officer deaths caused by assault in the last 8 years, so on average one per year - I have to question this figure... Even excluding firearm assaults, figures on wiki suggest that "death by other assault" was closer to 40 last year alone.

I haven't dug into those figures further, but it seems there's a pretty tight selection criteria going on to claim an average of 1.

Even so, surviving an assault isn't really a valid proof of efficacy. How many of the assaults were really carried out with causing death as the primary motivation? Much more likely to me is that "not get arrested" would be the main aim, and causing a death would be an unintended outcome.

I know plenty of people who have survived an assault with zero training, so I have to completely discount that especially if those minimum standards count because good physical condition gives you an immediate advantage.

And then there's what DT is really intended to achieve as well. It's been mentioned that it doesn't just cover defence.

I know that there's a huge bag of monkeys difference between holding someone down, and holding someone down and cuffing them.

So, it must have an effect there. It must teach a few things that are specifically useful in that situation?


Are figures available to show failure to defend that didn't involve death? For instance, an officer sees someone breaking into a car and challenges them. They punch or shove the officer and run away.

That's a failure to detain, and a failure to defend. Effectively, a failure of DT.

Is there anything other than "we all use it" available to show that DT really improves the outcome in that sort of situation?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?

Sure. But just like the UK, once they're on the force, they can get out of shape.

 

[lklawson]

Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?

Depends. All state-level LEO has recruit requirements and so do most Counties and Cities. However, there are some small, typically rural, villages and/or townships which have little to no standards. Some Deputies can be sworn in pretty much on the spot.

That said, most Police Academies have physical requirements. Beyond that there are not necessarily any standards between standards. The state of Ohio has slightly different physical and skills standards than, for instance, the city of San Francisco in California. The firearms skills requirements alone differ vastly from one organization to another.[1] While pretty much any of those shooting skills standards will ensure basic competency, they do vary wildly. If every state, city, and county, not to mention the different Federal Agencies, in the U.S. can't agree on one single set of shooting skills standards what makes us think they could agree on one standard for anything else?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[1]
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards3.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards4.pdf

 

[TMA17]

Once on the force, it's easy to fall out of shape. Sitting in a car all day, lack of motivation etc. It can happen to all of us. That's a good point.

Maybe a possible solution to some of the deficiencies in DT would be to create a condensed DT system based on MMA. A good 6 month dose of BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling/Judo etc. With pressure testing. Without that pressure testing, you're not gaining much.

MMA has proven that you need to be well rounded, and that goes for even street fights.

I took a SD BJJ class a few weeks ago and the guy I was up against was heavy and out of shape. In a pure grappling match, he would kill me. In a real fight, I'm not so sure. He weighed 60 lbs more than me but was slow as hell. When he took me down there were times i could have striked with speed or gotten away because he was out of shape. Conditioning is definitely part of it.

 

[jobo]

Sure. But just like the UK, once they're on the force, they can get out of shape.

that's only partially true, faced with na out of shape police force our government introduced regular fitness tests, but then an equality back lash about age and gender discrimination set the level abismally low, at 5.1 on the bleep test,

which means they a re capable of chasing down criminals at a gentle amble, what they are capable of doing if they ever catch one is unclear, but it's fair to say the arrest rate for elderly shop lifters on walking frames has improved no end

 

[drop bear]

A few random thoughts and questions - bearing in mind I've not done a DT course and I'm in a different country.

Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?

A few pages ago there was a statement that there have been 8 officer deaths caused by assault in the last 8 years, so on average one per year - I have to question this figure... Even excluding firearm assaults, figures on wiki suggest that "death by other assault" was closer to 40 last year alone.

I haven't dug into those figures further, but it seems there's a pretty tight selection criteria going on to claim an average of 1.

Even so, surviving an assault isn't really a valid proof of efficacy. How many of the assaults were really carried out with causing death as the primary motivation? Much more likely to me is that "not get arrested" would be the main aim, and causing a death would be an unintended outcome.

I know plenty of people who have survived an assault with zero training, so I have to completely discount that especially if those minimum standards count because good physical condition gives you an immediate advantage.

And then there's what DT is really intended to achieve as well. It's been mentioned that it doesn't just cover defence.

I know that there's a huge bag of monkeys difference between holding someone down, and holding someone down and cuffing them.

So, it must have an effect there. It must teach a few things that are specifically useful in that situation?


Are figures available to show failure to defend that didn't involve death? For instance, an officer sees someone breaking into a car and challenges them. They punch or shove the officer and run away.

That's a failure to detain, and a failure to defend. Effectively, a failure of DT.

Is there anything other than "we all use it" available to show that DT really improves the outcome in that sort of situation?

You would look at the figures before DT training and after. And see if they had any effect at all on officer injuries or death or officer arrest success rate.

 

[Buka]

Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.

 

[drop bear]

Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.

Not according to the evidence. They all arrest people and mostly don't die.

 

[pdg]

Depends. All state-level LEO has recruit requirements and so do most Counties and Cities. However, there are some small, typically rural, villages and/or townships which have little to no standards. Some Deputies can be sworn in pretty much on the spot.

That said, most Police Academies have physical requirements. Beyond that there are not necessarily any standards between standards. The state of Ohio has slightly different physical and skills standards than, for instance, the city of San Francisco in California. The firearms skills requirements alone differ vastly from one organization to another.[1] While pretty much any of those shooting skills standards will ensure basic competency, they do vary wildly. If every state, city, and county, not to mention the different Federal Agencies, in the U.S. can't agree on one single set of shooting skills standards what makes us think they could agree on one standard for anything else?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[1]
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards3.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards4.pdf

Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.

I'm not taking much notice of the firearms requirements differences, because I don't think it's particularly relevant to the "BJJ cop" subject.

Well, apart from showing differences exist...

But I'd expect differences to exist tbh, an inner city beat cop is going to have a different day compared to a cop in the sticks making rounds of farms.

So, a country deputy isn't going to need the same tools - but (and I may have this utterly wrong) doesn't an academy graduate pretty much go where they're sent?

The academy is therefore going to have to cover far more bases.

 

[pdg]

You would look at the figures before DT training and after. And see if they had any effect at all on officer injuries or death or officer arrest success rate.

And are those particular figures published?

Are stats available to show how many arrest attempts are successful v how many fail, and if so, do they state why?

It would need to be shown that any failure could be directly attributable to training or lack thereof, and I would still have little faith in the figures...

Are officer survival rates anything at all to go by? An average of one death per year was stated earlier, I questioned that with the wiki suggestion of it being more like 40.

Even if it was 100 per year, as a percentage of active officers that's an extremely low number - even going from 150 pre DT to 50 post DT would be meaningless because they're different people against different people in different situations. If it went from 1,000 to 10 then that would show something.

Whether that something it showed could be useful to determine future training is another matter though.

 

[Steve]

Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.

Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.

I know a lot of cops who train BJJ and some BJJ instructors who train cops in dt. I haven’t read the entire thread, so excuse me if I am making points that have already been made, but We are talking about professionals here. I’m sure some cops do the bare minimum to get by, but I’d like to think most do not limit their development to two weeks per year. It seems pretty clear that the minimum is checking a box and little more.

 

[drop bear]

And are those particular figures published?

Are stats available to show how many arrest attempts are successful v how many fail, and if so, do they state why?

It would need to be shown that any failure could be directly attributable to training or lack thereof, and I would still have little faith in the figures...

Are officer survival rates anything at all to go by? An average of one death per year was stated earlier, I questioned that with the wiki suggestion of it being more like 40.

Even if it was 100 per year, as a percentage of active officers that's an extremely low number - even going from 150 pre DT to 50 post DT would be meaningless because they're different people against different people in different situations. If it went from 1,000 to 10 then that would show something.

Whether that something it showed could be useful to determine future training is another matter though.

Not in any relevant way. I looked up officer deaths. And not surprisingly back in the 1920s there was bugger all. Spiked in the 70s then stayed pretty constant.

All just inconclusive.

Bouncers in comparison have little or no industry training and arrest people and don't generally die as well.

 

[drop bear]

I know a lot of cops who train BJJ and some BJJ instructors who train cops in dt. I haven’t read the entire thread, so excuse me if I am making points that have already been made, but We are talking about professionals here. I’m sure some cops do the bare minimum to get by, but I’d like to think most do not limit their development to two weeks per year. It seems pretty clear that the minimum is checking a box and little more.

There are a lot of factors that win fights that have very little to do with trained ability.

The training is a bit of a red herring in that way.

The other thing that has guys sook big time is my suggestion that cops fighting people on their own is setting up to fail.

But two cops cost more money than one.