Evaluating Iraq

[Makalakumu]

What do you think is the best tact now for our nation? Pull out? Stay? If we stay, we need commitment. Kick and scream all you want. I just choose a different approach...

...until something comes along that has you kicking and screaming.

I would say the focus of my dissent is removing the President from office. It is pointless arguing whether or not we should have gone. We are there. In my opinion we need to fight it out and wrap up the mess President Bush handed us. There are few alternatives. We need to stay the course and finish the job and then we need to fire the leadership who brought us this fiasco.

 

[Makalakumu]

And when the troops come home, some who have had access to this forum and could be reading your focus on the attrocities and darkness of those who serve, what kind of greeting do you expect? What do you think they will say about your refusal to participate yet choice to comment? Keeping the homefires burning doesn't mean throwing the baby on the fire with the...bath water (now that doesn't work does it)

I mean really, I was 'in' and chose to get out for my family/son and my integrity/honor and courage came into question. I felt like a heal standing in front of the unit commander on the day of the 9/11 response activation and telling him that I had already requested Inactive Reserve status because of family/personal reason but, if they didn't have enough bodies, I was ready to go if he gave me the order.

What kind of perception of your military support do you expect?

Coming home to people who disagree with what you did is part of living in a democracy. It's part of the package you get when you sign up. In my opinion, any war, no matter how just, should always have dissent. There should always be a variety of opinions and those opinions should always be expressed. Just curious, how many soldiers over there feel that what they are doing is bogus...now that is something that hasn't been reported very often, but I can't imagine that everyone is unified.

 

[Tgace]

Not really. But..since you mentioned it... http://www.counterpunch.org/drivingblack.html
http://www.racialprofilinganalysis.neu.edu/article.php?article_type=whats_new

They omited the WNY connection you seem jumpy about though.....

But please....lets do that dance on a different thread.

Jumpy? Hardly...but youre from WNY and I make no secret of what dept. I work for....isnt much of a stretch to take your implication.

 

[loki09789]

...until something comes along that has you kicking and screaming.

I would say the focus of my dissent is removing the President from office. It is pointless arguing whether or not we should have gone. We are there. In my opinion we need to fight it out and wrap up the mess President Bush handed us. There are few alternatives. We need to stay the course and finish the job and then we need to fire the leadership who brought us this fiasco.

Ow, Ow, he's dragging me out by my civil liberties!

Seriously though, it doesn't look like the POTUS is really pushing too hard for public support or being 'political' in his decision making (back to his press conference about not making decisions based on poll results). I think he will find his way out of office because he took a stand and is acting according to his principles. I can't see him winning the next election. He did leave a mess for future administrations and I do think that he had that on the table before 9/11. I remember the build up talk. But the question is whether it is a good mess because SHussein was a bad guy. We can't ignore that fact. He was ignoring/uncompliant for years with the agreed cease fire terms at the end of Desert Storm. All the public relations linking to AlQ rang funny to me too. I do think that SHussein could have waited some more, but did need to be dealt with.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tom,
if you're not one of those doing it, then theres no reason to be defensive.

Paul,
please, no pictures of your "civil liberties"..this is a family forum.

UpNorth,
"how many soldiers over there feel that what they are doing is bogus".
Enough to matter. The sad translation of "non-hostile gunshot" is "suicide", in too many cases. The numbers of those who stepped into enemy fire so as to go heroically aren't known. I don't have the stats, but I would guess that many of those are the 'Guard units that never thought it would be more than the weekend a month - money for college stuff, y'know? I believe the suicide numbers are such that while its not a major issue, it is a concern however.

 

[loki09789]

By the way,

What exactly does "Ah Tovarich" mean in this usage and context? The messenger might want to stay anonymous, but I am confused by the comment intention. Other reply options are available if discression is a goal.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Googled it.

tovarich

SYLLABICATION: to·va·rich
PRONUNCIATION: t-värch, -sh, -shch
VARIANT FORMS: or to·va·rish
NOUN: A comrade.

[size=-1]ETYMOLOGY:[/size]Russian tovarishch, from Old Russian tovarishch

, sing. of tovarishchi, business associates, from Old Turkic tavar ishchi, businessman, merchant : tavar, wealth, trade + ishchi, one who works (from ish, work, business).

 

[Tgace]

We all seem to agree that the War wasnt started, waged and planned in the right manner. We all agree that we now have to stay and finish what we started....where are we disagreeing here??

-attitude/support for the troops: how do we "support" the agent of government policy while disagreeing with that policy? We seem to be disagreeing over "time and place" rather than "right and wrong".

-General attitude towards America

 

[loki09789]

Googled it.

Like I said, within the context, I know the translation/etymology. Wondering about the message intent.

 

[Tgace]

Wouldnt say Im defensive...just looking like someone wanted to start a fight (knowing what we both know about our area). If I made some sweeping statement about your MA instructor how would you respond??

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Wouldnt say Im defensive...just looking like someone wanted to start a fight (knowing what we both know about our area). If I made some sweeping statement about your MA instructor how would you respond??

Rereading what I wrote, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

As to my instructor....it all depends on what was said...I might bite ya, or get ya a cool beverage.

Like I said, within the context, I know the translation/etymology. Wondering about the message intent.

Well, I can search the PM/Rep systems and dig. Was there more? A link to a particular post? Was it positive or negative? etc?

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. There's a difference between an individual soldier or squad going through a door, and an army going across a border.

2. Since when did the Prez and his cronies become the same thing as America? With some of the logic I'm seeing here, there would be no act of war on the part of our government could possibly be opposed legitimately. Mexican War? Keep your mouth shut 'till it's over. Massacres of Indians by US Cavalry? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Suppression of the Phillippine Insurrection? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Sending Guard units to shoot strikers in Colorado? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. President knowingly lies and send troops to Vietnam, where aa few of the troops murder civilians at places like My Lai? Keep your mouth shut till it's over...

And before some of y'all crank up, do try to keep it in mind that I am not arguing that our present fine little war is the same thing. Nor am I arguing that our troops are bad people, or any such sort of nonsense. I'm arguing that the position that once the Prez, whoever it is, sends in troops, the only thing we can do is keep silent and support them, is completely loopy. If you think for five seconds, you'll realize that of course you can't possibly mean that--hell, even Robert Heinlein noted again and again that we'd had power-mad Presidents and greedy Congresses launching us into stupid wars...

Find Mark Twain's, "To the People Sitting In Darkness." Read it. Now more than ever.

 

[Tgace]

Accepted...knowing what I know about "some" of my co-workers I could say the same.

 

[Tgace]

1. There's a difference between an individual soldier or squad going through a door, and an army going across a border.

2. Since when did the Prez and his cronies become the same thing as America? With some of the logic I'm seeing here, there would be no act of war on the part of our government could possibly be opposed legitimately. Mexican War? Keep your mouth shut 'till it's over. Massacres of Indians by US Cavalry? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Suppression of the Phillippine Insurrection? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Sending Guard units to shoot strikers in Colorado? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. President knowingly lies and send troops to Vietnam, where aa few of the troops murder civilians at places like My Lai? Keep your mouth shut till it's over...

And before some of y'all crank up, do try to keep it in mind that I am not arguing that our present fine little war is the same thing. Nor am I arguing that our troops are bad people, or any such sort of nonsense. I'm arguing that the position that once the Prez, whoever it is, sends in troops, the only thing we can do is keep silent and support them, is completely loopy. If you think for five seconds, you'll realize that of course you can't possibly mean that--hell, even Robert Heinlein noted again and again that we'd had power-mad Presidents and greedy Congresses launching us into stupid wars...

Find Mark Twain's, "To the People Sitting In Darkness." Read it. Now more than ever.

Im not saying that in the least....My dilema is were saying "right or wrong, were in it now...lets stay and finish things right." Should we deal with the rightness/wrongness of getting into it in the first place ...yes. Where/how do you "support" the mission as it is (as opposed to pulling out and leaving Iraq out to dry) and protest the war as a whole?? If were saying "right or wrong we have to deal with it now" than it is similiar to a squad going through the door. In for a penny...in for a pound. How do we deal with the contradiction?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just to tie 2 boards discussions into 1, since many of the same points are being hit in both places:

MartialTalk:
Evaluating Iraq

BudoSeek:
More Bodies Found Mutilated In Iraq!!!

 

[loki09789]

Rereading what I wrote, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

As to my instructor....it all depends on what was said...I might bite ya, or get ya a cool beverage.



Well, I can search the PM/Rep systems and dig. Was there more? A link to a particular post? Was it positive or negative? etc?

Not looking for an investigation, just wanted to communicate with the rep voter/poster a little further. Leaving it up to them to 'go public' or communicate more privately. Thanks though

 

[loki09789]

1. There's a difference between an individual soldier or squad going through a door, and an army going across a border.

2. Since when did the Prez and his cronies become the same thing as America? With some of the logic I'm seeing here, there would be no act of war on the part of our government could possibly be opposed legitimately. Mexican War? Keep your mouth shut 'till it's over. Massacres of Indians by US Cavalry? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Suppression of the Phillippine Insurrection? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. Sending Guard units to shoot strikers in Colorado? Keep your mouth shut till it's over. President knowingly lies and send troops to Vietnam, where aa few of the troops murder civilians at places like My Lai? Keep your mouth shut till it's over...

And before some of y'all crank up, do try to keep it in mind that I am not arguing that our present fine little war is the same thing. Nor am I arguing that our troops are bad people, or any such sort of nonsense. I'm arguing that the position that once the Prez, whoever it is, sends in troops, the only thing we can do is keep silent and support them, is completely loopy. If you think for five seconds, you'll realize that of course you can't possibly mean that--hell, even Robert Heinlein noted again and again that we'd had power-mad Presidents and greedy Congresses launching us into stupid wars...

Find Mark Twain's, "To the People Sitting In Darkness." Read it. Now more than ever.

Did I not clarify that I was talking about my personal chosen path of commentary about these issues? Didn't I say that I wasn't trying to tell others that they HAD to do it this way? I did think for five seconds, or more, I can't remember with my 'loopy' logic and all those other accusitory, judgemental, one paragraph ways of getting called 'stupid' that you love so much... and still expect us to bow down and say 'your right.'

Just when things were getting chummy again, Mr. PhD Turrets sticks a fresh log on the fire, or should that be Dr. Academic Turrets, even though you prefer Robert....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Kinda bugs you that I'm doing this stuff without benefit of, "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations," don't it?

Other than that, I think what I think, and I ain't getting into these endless tangles of spaghetti any more, since all they seem to amount to are claims that, "I didn't say what I said," or, "that word didn't mean what it means."

You are presuming personal attacks when I do not make them, based upon what you think I must be thinking rather than what I write.

 

[Tgace]

Well, maybe if you read the last 2 days worth of posts you'd see that we arent saying the @#$% youre accusing us of saying...or at least should ask for clarification of our stance before calling us "Bushie War supporters".

We're in a Vietnam backlash when it comes to our troops. How do you "support" soldiers fighting an "unpopular" war? Spitting on soldiers like was done in the 60-70's was wrong. But the current method of "support" seems shallow and fake

 

[michaeledward]

I wonder ... what would happen if the United States just left Iraq. I mentioned in another thread, earlier or somewhere else ... I voted for Kucinich in the primary because he wants out in 90 days. I believe his sentiment is you can't have a 'Good Occupation from a Bad Invasion'.

So, While the US won't leave (anytime soon), what if they did.

Certainly, the Iraqi Governing Council would relocate to England or the United States (or be killed if they didn't). So they would no longer be the Iraqi Governing Council.

The *****e might go about exterminating the Sunni's in a Civil war.

Would the conflict expand outside of Iraq? I don't think so. Iran might throw its support behind the *****e's ... which would quicken the Sunni's demise.

Saudi Arabia & Kuwait would become stronger supporters of the US. This might allow us to apply a bit more pressure to reform those countries.

OPEC might collapse.

Hmmm ... any other thoughts. What would happen if we just left.

Oh, yeah .. No more american soldiers would die. Although, it may embolden the 'Terrorists'.

hmmm - Mike