Evaluating Iraq

[Bob Hubbard]

I think you hit the nail on the head right here. I can't understand why The US can't at least give the appearence of being a neutral party to all the hoopla. While I think that islamic fundamentalism may end up being the death of us all, the US has to at least look like it isn't subject to the whims of Israel. If terrorism were truly what we have taken a stand against, then Israel would be right at the top of our list for invasion. Its not right that we treat Israel with kid gloves and smash those that don't like it. Elohim does not represent the trinity, why do we suddenly become Old testament Jews when dealing with the islamic world?
Sean

Exactly. If we condemn Sadam, and Stalin, and Hitler, and their ilk, why do we take a blind eye to the terroristic actions of our 'partners'?

Make the deal.
Put it bluntly....keep up the BS, lose the help.
Step into the 21st century...and let us help you grow.
Make the offer to -both- sides...and keep it.

 

[Tgace]

What, was I being sarcastic and snippy? Sorry..I thought that since most of the political threads here focused on how evil, corrupt, Rome on the verge of burning my country has become, how thuglike our soldiers are, how corrupt LEO's are,...with hardly any (none that I could see) examples to the contrary...I didnt think my "attitude" mattered.

Folks say "Just because I protest/am against American policy doesn't mean Im Anti-American". And I agree.

I say "Just because I say Im patriotic dosent mean Im blind to my countries wrongs." Deal with the wrongs and "drive on". I just have faith. Why cant that seem to be accepted in the same spirit?

Reminds me of the breifing I had by my SWAT leader when I first got on the team... "You only have the right to complain if you have a solution. Dont waste our time by pointing out whats wrong If you arent going to suggest a way to fix it." If we all approached problems as fellow Americans, in the spirit of doing whats best for our nation, we'd all be better off. I just tire of the bashing that seems like "from Columbus to now America is nothing but a history of evil and oppression" where does light shine from that???

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yin/Yang Tom.....Yin/Yang.

I offer the dark.... can you bring the light?

You say not to bring up a problem, unless one has a possible sollution...I agree, 110%.

Here are my solutions:
- Better training for those who must "do and die"
- Better intellegence for our leaders so they don't spill our lives on futile efforts
- Better focus on our own internal problems. We can't heal the world until we heal ourselves.
- Restore the "American Dream" to the American People.
- Truely learn from the past, not just give it lip service.
- Agressively remove those LEO/Military who abuse their positions, power and authority.
- Continue to refine that which makes us great.

In the case of Iraq...we must leave the land better than it was before we came. We can't do that while we are shooting up children and mosques.....and we can't do that while we are being shot at either. Peace must be forged there 1 section at a time, and they must see the improvement. Hard to see when you have no power, clean water or running plumbing. Hard to fix those when you might get shot or worse.

What is the answer? I'm not sure. Encircle a town, sweep it for hostiles, then, when it is all clear, rebuiild it to shine as an example perhaps. Those in the field with current data have to decide the 'how'. I cannot.

 

[michaeledward]

Be sure of your target and beyond. We do our best to fight by that principle too.

Do you think so? I'm not so certain. In the time leading up to the invasion, the President made repeated statements that he felt (aside --- he felt strongly --- have you noticed how everything he feels, is felt strongly) that the Iraqi people could rule themselves, once Saddam Hussein was gone.

Well, now it seems that the way the Iraqi's want to rule themselves is to get the United States out of their country. Seems we might have missed the target there. We may end up with 'One Free Election - One Time'; i.e. the Iraqi people may elect a totalitarian government headed by al-Sadr (bad) or ali-Sistani (not so bad). This begs the question ... What then? What is beyond the target?

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

Jews are a democratic people trying to coexist with a nation that has no regard for human life.

Statements like this are certainly going to arouse my hackles. But what you say is true .... NATIONs have no regard for human life.

However, what I think you mean is that Palestinians have no regard for human life. Broad, sweeping statements like that are not quite good for dialog. They are very good at picking a fight.

Perhaps the Palistinians are upset about getting kicked off their land. As of yet, the Isreali government has not allowed them to build Casino's to payback the inequities they have suffered.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Statements like this are certainly going to arouse my hackles. But what you say is true .... NATIONs have no regard for human life.

However, what I think you mean is that Palestinians have no regard for human life. Broad, sweeping statements like that are not quite good for dialog. They are very good at picking a fight.

Perhaps the Palistinians are upset about getting kicked off their land. As of yet, the Isreali government has not allowed them to build Casino's to payback the inequities they have suffered.

Or cigarette stands.....

 

[Tgace]

Now were coming to points I can agree with...I would say "focus on fixing our nations problems" too, but I wouldnt say "dont take action on what you see as wrong unless you were never wrong yourself". "or untill your nations perfect". I would also say that some of those points are more "goals" than solutions....solutions have process. More "How things should be done" than "what should be done" if you get my drift?

"offering the dark" is one thing but like I stated before if we paint a picture of America as evil and corrupt from Columbus to now....where does light shine from that?

 

[Tgace]

Do you think so? I'm not so certain. In the time leading up to the invasion, the President made repeated statements that he felt (aside --- he felt strongly --- have you noticed how everything he feels, is felt strongly) that the Iraqi people could rule themselves, once Saddam Hussein was gone.

Well, now it seems that the way the Iraqi's want to rule themselves is to get the United States out of their country. Seems we might have missed the target there. We may end up with 'One Free Election - One Time'; i.e. the Iraqi people may elect a totalitarian government headed by al-Sadr (bad) or ali-Sistani (not so bad). This begs the question ... What then? What is beyond the target?

Mike

If you want to turn my point from combat to politics fine...I thought we were talking about the US's concern for non-combatant casulties.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Someone has to point out the dark spots....I tend to have a nack at finding the 'crap'.

Someone able to find that light needs to offer it up as well.
I often point out things, in the hope that others will find the evidence to refute them, to outshine them, to prove them wrong or biased.

Why? Because, the information is there....if I found it, so did others. Most times it is there without the 'balancing point' being available. If I post both sides (which I sometimes do), there can be a bias implied, IMO.


"Perfect".... eh...not possible to hit that mark. Its reserved for those on a higher level than us. We can aim for it though, and work like mad to get as close as we can. I do see your drift though...and do agree with it. Problem is, most folks either don't see a goal or solution, or if they do, see it as being unreachable. Before you can get directions (solution/process) one must know where they wish to arrive. Once you have a destination in mind...one can research and plan on how to best reach it.

 

[Makalakumu]

"offering the dark" is one thing but like I stated before if we paint a picture of America as evil and corrupt from Columbus to now....where does light shine from that?

Contemplate this...what if the history of our country has been shaped predominantly by human greed and dark ambition? Sure there are good things out there that people are doing. I am attempting to do a lot of good in the city where I live by being active in our community. Yet, the big picture...it doesn't look good. History, its doesn't look good. You want solutions - I don't know what to do sometimes - for instance there is nothing I can do to stop an unjust war...

Look, I applaude your faith in the principles of this country. I don't want to deride that. It's important to love your country and, I would say, its even more important to work to make your government stand up for the things that you love.

 

[Tgace]

Agreed...my problem has been more with the "spirit" than the "content" if you get that drift .

 

[Tgace]

Contemplate this...what if the history of our country has been shaped predominantly by human greed and dark ambition? Sure there are good things out there that people are doing. I am attempting to do a lot of good in the city where I live by being active in our community. Yet, the big picture...it doesn't look good. History, its doesn't look good. You want solutions - I don't know what to do sometimes - for instance there is nothing I can do to stop an unjust war...

Look, I applaude your faith in the principles of this country. I don't want to deride that. It's important to love your country and, I would say, its even more important to work to make your government stand up for the things that you love.

"Your" country or "our" country?
"Your" government or "our" government?

That has been my question and my problem with many posters on these threads that list US locations as their homes. Just because we may not "stand up" for the same things doesnt make you "right" and me "wrong". Tolerance extends in both directions right?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I feel any nation that is under constant attack, has the right to defend its self by any means necessary. Israel attacks for one reason, to prevent Israeli casualties. The bottom line is, Palestine wants Israel to stop existing. Jews are a democratic people trying to coexist with a nation that has no regard for human life. Israel is a country that has had to fight its entire existent in order not to be wiped off this planet. Israel does not send its children into the streets with the intent to blow themselves up to kill others. Israel's only defense is to react first, and if it means killing those willing to kill them then so be it.
As a government employee I know first hand what takes place there. And I know that if Israel does not take these measures they will annihilated.

now that you bring it up, democracy is what will truly end the nation of Israel. They cannot import Jews fast enough to vote against the dissolution of the Israli government. At that point I'm sure America will forgive the dictatorship that then must be put in place to maintain that nations very existance. Of course Americans will probably forget about democracy once Spanish is voted in as our national language; suddenly we be a republic run by sound minded corporations on the mobs behalf. But I digress.
Sean

 

[Tgace]

A little "light" from a Canadian....

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

-Gordon Sinclair

 

[Touch Of Death]

A little "light" from a Canadian....

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

-Gordon Sinclair

Just keep that positive attitude when we saction Canada to death for not following our laws.
Sean

 

[Tgace]

No responses to any of his points though I see...

 

[michaeledward]

If you want to turn my point from combat to politics fine...I thought we were talking about the US's concern for non-combatant casulties.

I too am talking about the concern for non-combatants. I expanded your thought from a small weapon (a gun) to a large weapon (the US Military). Should not the same care used when operating a gun be used when operating the US Military?

I am also expanding the idea of discharging the weapon one round at a time, to a larger scale, of one engagement at a time; (fallujah?).

After we discharge the weapon of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Fallujah, what is beyond that? Not in distance, but time.

Tonight, on the matt, we reviewed the 3rd person point of view. What do we see when we look at this engagement as a bystander?

That's all ... not really a point about politics, but practicality.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

No responses to any of his points though I see...

Ok why should France feel indebted? We saved them but unless we force there children to hold the US in there prayers and pledges of allegiance, they remain a soveriegn nation. By the way what nation were you taught to feel indebted to as a child? I know when I was brought up, they taught us to love America, and I don't expect france to be different. In fact I expect every country to teach that they are where a citizens loyaty should lie. As for the debts, why should they pay us back? If we could have let France fall and become communist in the fifties, but we weren't prepared to do that; because, it wouldn't have been in our best interest. The United states has been around long enough to know that no one is going to pay us back. I laugh at the Americans that expect us to take oil from Iraq to pay for the war. It ain't gonna happen. Our image is at stake. Unless we conquer a people, set up the flag, and make them a fifty first state, no one is going to have any "extra" money to throw at the US. Just accept that the US does what it does because the US doesn't like the alternative. Now stop selling prescription drugs to lower income americans or you will see the US acting in its own best interest!!! (just kidding, I don't care)
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

A little "light" from a Canadian....

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

-Gordon Sinclair

My response to these points is that for every single one, you can flip the coin and find the darkness. There are people in power who do NOTHING if it doesn't get them something in return. Hint - follow the money. Its all part of the dialectic form our government is arranged...

Otherwise, I agree the spirit of many posters here has been negative. I for one will place myself among those posters. There is a lot that is going wrong with my home and I am not happy with it. I can only speak for myself, but I would say that I am doing my share to rectify what is going on...Perhaps I should become a Freemason...

Now, returning to Iraq...

It has been shown and supported that Iraq has no ties to Al - qaeda.

It has been shown and supported that we have found no WMD and that our government had serious doubts concerning their presence before we went into Iraq.

It has also been shown and supported that the US can tolerate brutal dictatorships (as long as they obey their overlords).

These points beg the questions...

WHAT IS THE US DOING IN IRAQ?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Rich Parsons]

Exactly. If we condemn Sadam, and Stalin, and Hitler, and their ilk, why do we take a blind eye to the terroristic actions of our 'partners'?

Make the deal.
Put it bluntly....keep up the BS, lose the help.
Step into the 21st century...and let us help you grow.
Make the offer to -both- sides...and keep it.

Hmmm let me think about this one for a moment.

Sadam was a partner at one time.

Stalin was a partner at one time.

Nope Hitler was not.

2 out of 3 wow.

Are we our own worse enemy?

The PI, Iran, Iraq, Soviet Union, South America (* Multiple countries *)

:idunno: